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The National Trust

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john short
john short  1025 forum posts United Kingdom
17 May 2009 - 8:45 PM

My wife and I have been members of the NT for 20 years. I'm sure many photographers amatuer and professional also subscribe and support the good work they do.

Now they have told Alamy to remove all pictures of NT properties and contributing photographers are being advised their images will be deleted !

I accept photographs inside their properties can be used for potential criminal actitivties but to effectively remove the right to take pictures in their grounds is a step too far. if you as much as take a picture of a bee on a flower on NT property then you need a property release.

At the same time the NT are running a photo competition which grabs rights from every entrant " if you submit material to us , you agree to grant the National trust a perpetual, royalty free,non-exclusive license to use your contribution in all media. This includes the right to copy, edit,publish, grant sublicenses and exercise all other copyright and publicity rights over the material.

Now I personally find their position unacceptable and will cancel my family membership.

before I do how many others would be willing to sign a petition advising cancellation of membership as a response to their refusal to allow us to take pictures !

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17 May 2009 - 8:45 PM

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TeresaH
TeresaH  91116 forum posts United Kingdom
17 May 2009 - 8:55 PM

I like using the car parks.

catgirl73
catgirl73  6140 forum posts United Kingdom
17 May 2009 - 8:58 PM

I'll sign.

brian1208
brian1208 e2 Member 1110227 forum postsbrian1208 vcard United Kingdom12 Constructive Critique Points
17 May 2009 - 9:00 PM

What's worse is that they appeared to have closed the list of "approved photographers" last year so (as I understood it) you can no longer submit an image to them to gain their approval to use it commercially (whilst paying them their commission)

I'm not an NT member and as a result of this I am ensuring that all those photographers I know who are members are made well aware of the NT stance.

(Smacks of Restraint of Trade to me but what do I know, I'm no Lawyer, just pee'd off with NT)

Krakman
Krakman  73615 forum posts Scotland
17 May 2009 - 9:20 PM

Here's another extract from a letter from the NT to a photographer, quoted on a thread over here:


Quote: "Any use of images beyond your own private and personal use is considered commercial photography, so even if no fees are generated by the usage, reproduction or distribution of the images beyond your own private or domestic use is prohibited.

Photographers may obtain day licences to photograph at NT properties. These are granted only when a specific project is being undertaken, and must be arranged prior to photography, they cannot be granted retrospectively. So, if a publisher were to contact you with regard to you undertaking photography for an article, book or other publication, you could request a licence which is charged for by the day and also takes into consideration the end usage. Once the images have been used in the project, the copyright reverts to the NT.

So, day licences aren't really granted for speculative photography, or for photography which is intended for submission to photo libraries and agencies where usage may not be known beforehand.

Unfortunately, in this instance, we cannot grant permission for your images to be used by the publisher concerned. We try wherever possible to encourage all image requests to come to us in the National Trust Photo Library, for a number of reasons."

Last Modified By Krakman at 17 May 2009 - 9:21 PM
scthomas
scthomas  762 forum posts United Kingdom
17 May 2009 - 9:27 PM

I like using their car parks too, but I am considering foregoing this in view of their recent objections, after all there is no point stopping to take photos any more. I also think that any travel photographers/writers should boycott their properties and write about something else in the area instead.

keith selmes
17 May 2009 - 9:28 PM

Didn't we do this in April - Here

wrinkles
wrinkles e2 Member 5349 forum postswrinkles vcard United Kingdom
17 May 2009 - 9:36 PM

Does the N T receive any Government money.

Krakman
Krakman  73615 forum posts Scotland
17 May 2009 - 9:43 PM

Interestingly, they adopted a bye-law forbidding commercial photography, but the National Trust Acts (which say what they can adopt bye-laws on) don't actually seem so far as I can see to give them the right to adopt that byelaw. In other words, on the face of it, it looks like they're exceeding their authority.

If so, it wouldn't be the first time they acted beyond the law. I referred to their Newton River debacle on the other thread.

Last Modified By Krakman at 17 May 2009 - 9:44 PM
PP
PP  12222 forum posts England
17 May 2009 - 10:45 PM


Quote: I accept photographs inside their properties can be used for potential criminal actitivties but to effectively remove the right to take pictures in their grounds is a step too far.


The NT does allow photographs to be taken in its grounds, what it probably objects to is people trying to sell those images for commercial gain, without paying anything to the NT. As a registered charity, independent of government, and reliant on income from membership fees, donations, commercial operations etc, that seems a reasonable approach in terms of maximising income to carry out its work.

Regards their use of images you submit to them, if you don't want your images to be used free of charge in any way the NT sees fit, then don't send them any images......I wouldn't agree to those conditions.

Sezz
Sezz e2 Member 9617 forum postsSezz vcard England15 Constructive Critique Points
17 May 2009 - 11:04 PM

The quote Krakman found was actually from part of a letter sent to me after I had a request from somone wanting to publish one of my images. I offered the pic to NT's library free of charge - they were not interested. The reply was that the company could find a suitable image from their own stock library. Actually the company had already looked there and not found anything suitable! I don't mind the NT having a policy so long as it's set out for all to see on their properties - on a recent epz meet at Bodiam Castle we were all asked to sign a form to say that we would send the NT all the images that we had taken on that day, if we did not do this within 30 days they would fine us 500 - a bit strong I thought. When asked if everyone with a camera had filled in this form, the lady replied with 'only the people with cameras like yours' DSLR's and tripods - so what about those with compacts, mobile phones etc - perhaps none of us wanted to sell our work, just get shots without camera shake!! I have been approached quite a few times to have my images used in various publications but to date have just come up against a brick wall with the NT. I think they are cutting off their nose to spite their face as in my honest opinion, I have seen work on here and on other sites that is of a much better standard than on some of their own publications and website! - Rant over, sorry!!

Last Modified By Sezz at 17 May 2009 - 11:05 PM
uggyy
uggyy  82104 forum posts Scotland9 Constructive Critique Points
17 May 2009 - 11:09 PM

The "dont take Photos as they can be used for STEALING" would cut the ice if they didnt actually publish the photos themself in there own mags.


I wonder how much money they seem to think the avg joe blogs weekend tog actually makes out of shots on thier property? In the end I personally can seem them loosing more money from membership than stopping photos generating money at thier expense but how do you work out that one? Wink

Just take the shot from the road or public pathway and let em moan. Wink

uggyy
uggyy  82104 forum posts Scotland9 Constructive Critique Points
17 May 2009 - 11:22 PM


Quote: on a recent epz meet at Bodiam Castle we were all asked to sign a form to say that we would send the NT all the images that we had taken on that day, if we did not do this within 30 days they would fine us 500

Sezz you got to be joking???? Thats more than strong, thats outright scaremoungering and theft.. I wonder out of curiosity if they chase paintings of thier property with such passion...

Im gobsmaked on that.. Did you send them, I would love them trying to fine somone with that kind of letter...

Sezz
Sezz e2 Member 9617 forum postsSezz vcard England15 Constructive Critique Points
17 May 2009 - 11:26 PM

Wish I was Joking Tommy!!

wireman
wireman  852 forum posts United Kingdom
17 May 2009 - 11:30 PM

If we gave our pictures of NT properties away for free to all comers, maybe the loss of sales would encourage the NT to think again. If they can claim the commercial rights for them anyway, reducing the commercial rights to zero would mean there was not a lot for them to claim.

Would that be legal - it would certainly allow us to be seen as amatuer.

Do we, as members, not have a vote at an AGM or some such, where we could argue to change the policy?

I would definitely sign a petition. I think I am due to resign my membership next year anyway, following some really disappointing visits recently - especially a chocolate festival with very little chocolate.

David

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