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The water feature and the law.

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Jestertheclown
2 Aug 2012 - 10:39 PM


Quote: our liberty and freedom to go around innocently without being harassed is an important one ... In fact it is fundamental in a free society.

Good Lord!
Who's shouting from the treetops now?
I started this thread simply to point out that there are times when a little common sense and level headedness is all that's required to avoid a potentially prickly situation.
To show how we don't need to behave like spoilt children just because someone in authority has asked us, quite rightly, what we're doing.
My tale in the OP was meant to be an example of how easily we can all get along; how just a hint of respect for each other is all that's required.
There's been no need for any of the animosity and now police bashing that's taking over.

Why can't anyone ever post anything positive in these forums without it having to turn out like this?

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2 Aug 2012 - 10:39 PM

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NEWMANP
NEWMANP e2 Member 61587 forum postsNEWMANP vcard United Kingdom574 Constructive Critique Points
2 Aug 2012 - 10:58 PM

i dont think anyone is attacking the police, i have never had a bad experience with them , on the contrary and the fact that you were patient with their request is admirable.

the thing that bothers me is changing attitudes and public opinion usually driven by media that seems to typecast photographers as evil monsters. particularly if you have a" big" camera.

Phil

monstersnowman
2 Aug 2012 - 11:21 PM

Jestertheclown ... If you didn't want people to voice an opinion on something then DONT open a post about it mate. Since when was 'you' opening a post about something perfectly acceptable and me responding with an opinion suddenly 'shouting from the treetops' ? I simply don't think that sending police/pcso every time ths sort of thing (a man takes a photo of his daughter in a public place) happens is a reasonable and measured response, no matter how polite people remained. If we do it for this then why not countless other similar situations ? The answer is because you were a 'man with a camera' ergo, a potential paedophile - and I take exception to this unreasonable suspicion/assumption. The more you accept this attention the more it will happen - it has clearly been demonstrated that speaking out will force forces (sorry), to consider their response and not to harass innocent people. Ask yourself how polite would the situation have remained had you legally and reasonably refused details and walked away ... as was your right. I have seen videos where the friendly questioning became quite oppressive and unlawful.

Last Modified By monstersnowman at 2 Aug 2012 - 11:49 PM
Jestertheclown
2 Aug 2012 - 11:30 PM


Quote: Ask yourself how polite would the situation have remained had you legally and reasonably refused details and gone on your way ... as was your right.


I've answered that in a previous post.
It would, fairly obviously, have turned nasty.
But would that be my fault for being antagonistic? Of course it would, in the eyes of most people.
Or would it have been the fault of the PCSOs who simply, quietly and politely, asked me some questions?
It would seem that you'd believe the latter.

I don't have a problem with people voicing their opinions but there's no need for those opinions to become a crusade, shouting down other peoples' opinions.

Last Modified By Jestertheclown at 2 Aug 2012 - 11:31 PM
Paul Morgan
Paul Morgan e2 Member 1315479 forum postsPaul Morgan vcard England6 Constructive Critique Points
2 Aug 2012 - 11:39 PM


Quote: Do PCSOs have any rights over and above any other civilian?

In some ways they have less rights, but as Keithh says the PCSO's were responding to a request to attend.


Quote: I carry a little card which clearly states " ( I don't know how to show it here)

I AM A PHOTOGRAPHER
1 AM NOT A TERRORIST
I AM NOT A PAEDOPHILE ALL IN LARGE CAPITALS WITH THE "NOT" in red and the rest in black followed by this in smaller print.

In UK Law, a photographer can legally take a photograph in any public place.
Whilst there are exceptions such as the security of certain defined premises,
there are no other restrictions upon the photography of anyone in a public place
be they adult or child, civilian, military or police

The get a of jail card makes me cringe Sad

monstersnowman
3 Aug 2012 - 12:27 AM


Quote: Ask yourself how polite would the situation have remained had you legally and reasonably refused details and gone on your way ... as was your right.
I've answered that in a previous post.
It would, fairly obviously, have turned nasty.
But would that be my fault for being antagonistic? Of course it would, in the eyes of most people.
Or would it have been the fault of the PCSOs who simply, quietly and politely, asked me some questions?
It would seem that you'd believe the latter.

I don't have a problem with people voicing their opinions but there's no need for those opinions to become a crusade, shouting down other peoples' opinions.

It would have turned nasty? Just because you were in public, doing nothing wrong, and exercising your legal right? In what world can you say, with apparent calm acceptance, that it would fairly obviously have turned nasty, then wonder why we are getting sick of this harassment and wish to speak out. It seems you answered it yourself.

And for the record why, again, are you accusing anyone who responds to your post on the thread that you opened about the event in question, of crusading, shouting down opinions, and previously, shouting from the treetops. We are just expressing an opinion in the same way you are, no more, no less.

monstersnowman
3 Aug 2012 - 12:34 AM


Quote: Do PCSOs have any rights over and above any other civilian?

In some ways they have less rights, but as Keithh says the PCSO's were responding to a request to attend.

I carry a little card which clearly states " ( I don't know how to show it here)

I AM A PHOTOGRAPHER
1 AM NOT A TERRORIST
I AM NOT A PAEDOPHILE ALL IN LARGE CAPITALS WITH THE "NOT" in red and the rest in black followed by this in smaller print.

In UK Law, a photographer can legally take a photograph in any public place.
Whilst there are exceptions such as the security of certain defined premises,
there are no other restrictions upon the photography of anyone in a public place
be they adult or child, civilian, military or police

The get a of jail card makes me cringe Sad

Yeah it may e a bit cringey, but it comes as a result of many photographers being threatened, abused, harassed and treated illegally just for taking innocent photographs. And that is just the treatment by the police, who are here to protect our freedoms rather than erode them and infringe/restrict them illegally. When you find yourself in a situation with a police officer and you know that they are the only one acting outside of the law but you feel your freedom is threatened and are unable to clearly vocalise your position in this stressful time then I can understand a cringey crib card may offer some comfort and at least inform the officer and yourself of the law. Many would be too intimidated to stand up or themselves in their own reasonable defence.

Carabosse
Carabosse e2 Member 1139496 forum postsCarabosse vcard England269 Constructive Critique Points
3 Aug 2012 - 12:41 AM


Quote: the PCSO's were responding to a request to attend.

Depends who made the request. Was it by the police? Or was it by the likes of............................ me! (I.e. a civilian).

It was:


Quote: Apparently, someone in a control box somewhere had seen on their CCTV, a man (that would be me) with what was described as a big camera, taking photographs of a girl (that's Chloe) playing in the fountains.

I do think Brendan handled situation well, especially in front of his child - that is something to be taken into account. I think I might have been slightly less tolerant!

Paul Morgan
Paul Morgan e2 Member 1315479 forum postsPaul Morgan vcard England6 Constructive Critique Points
3 Aug 2012 - 12:49 AM


Quote: Depends who made the request. Was it by the police? Or was it by the likes of............................ me! (I.e. a civilian)

Does it matter who made the request Smile

Carabosse
Carabosse e2 Member 1139496 forum postsCarabosse vcard England269 Constructive Critique Points
3 Aug 2012 - 12:54 AM


Quote: Does it matter who made the request

From a legal point of view, I would imagine it makes a huge difference.

Otherwise it means that I can come and give you a grilling if I see you taking photos of your daughter in a public place.......................

Paul Morgan
Paul Morgan e2 Member 1315479 forum postsPaul Morgan vcard England6 Constructive Critique Points
3 Aug 2012 - 1:04 AM


Quote: Otherwise it means that I can come and give you a grilling if I see you taking photos of your daughter in a public place.......................

Or even make a citizens arrest, something a PCSO can`t do, but you could end up in hot water if you get it wrong.

Carabosse
Carabosse e2 Member 1139496 forum postsCarabosse vcard England269 Constructive Critique Points
3 Aug 2012 - 1:07 AM


Quote: but you could end up in hot water if you get it wrong.

Which is why hardly anyone does it - apart from the fact that few people carry handcuffs on them! Wink

Police officers have much more protection.

Paul Morgan
Paul Morgan e2 Member 1315479 forum postsPaul Morgan vcard England6 Constructive Critique Points
3 Aug 2012 - 1:24 AM

Carrying and using handcuffs is a little over the top, and would more than likely land you in trouble if you used them Smile


Quote: Does it matter who made the request

From a legal point of view, I would imagine it makes a huge difference

I can just imagine it, I see your care being broken into or see`s someone acting suspiciously around your car so I call the police.

The police then ignore my call because I`m just a citizen Smile

strawman
strawman  1022010 forum posts United Kingdom16 Constructive Critique Points
3 Aug 2012 - 1:32 AM

I know a few people who would call the police in the situation mentioned by the OP. Is that the correct thing to do?, probably not, but it happens. Glad the OP and the people involved handled it in a mature and reasonable way.

the bigger problem for those CCTV people is they see a child being carried screaming into car against its will, is it an abduction or more likely a child having a tantrum a poor parent is trying to deal with. But every now and then... Those people can never win, do nothing and its an incident and they get pilloried by the press, do something and they are interfering over PC etc. It sounds like he people who responded were polite, intelligent and respectful. So its been handled well.

Last Modified By strawman at 3 Aug 2012 - 1:36 AM
Carabosse
Carabosse e2 Member 1139496 forum postsCarabosse vcard England269 Constructive Critique Points
3 Aug 2012 - 1:35 AM


Quote: I can just imagine it, I see your care being broken into or see`s someone acting suspiciously around your car so I call the police.

The police then ignore my call because I`m just a citizen

Yep - these days it will sometimes be ignored............... "shortage of manpower" or whatever. But not because you are a citizen, it is because they have taken a policy or pragmatic decision not to get involved.

Soft targets like motorists doing 71mph in a 70 help keep the statistics healthy. Wink

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