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The water feature and the law.

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monstersnowman

The speeding one or two mile an hour over thing is just a lazy thoughtless and vacuous thing and an insult to our intelligence on here. Every single person I have ever been a passenger with has exceeded the speed limit. Absolutely and without question, every one and not one in 45 yrs has one ever been stopped. The amount of people who get stopped every time they speed is an absolute minute and unverifiable fraction. The police just are NOT there catching only minor speeding offenders - is just utter nonsense. Cameras get the VAST majority of speeders and actual patrols account for a minor fraction of the very few that get prosecuted or fined. You don't even get prosecuted at one or two mph over the limit to the best of my knowledge as the amount over before prosecution is more than that and certainly from acpo guidelines. When I was ever on speed camera duty as an officer on patrol it was only ever on quiet shifts and we would always respond to calls. I will assume a level of humour from the winking icon but still post the response as it is easy to make a point then cover yourself with a winky just in case Wink

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3 Aug 2012 - 4:46 AM

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Focus_Man
Focus_Man  4481 forum posts United Kingdom631 Constructive Critique Points
3 Aug 2012 - 8:40 AM


Quote: Do PCSOs have any rights over and above any other civilian?

In some ways they have less rights, but as Keithh says the PCSO's were responding to a request to attend.

I carry a little card which clearly states " ( I don't know how to show it here)

I AM A PHOTOGRAPHER
1 AM NOT A TERRORIST
I AM NOT A PAEDOPHILE ALL IN LARGE CAPITALS WITH THE "NOT" in red and the rest in black followed by this in smaller print.

In UK Law, a photographer can legally take a photograph in any public place.
Whilst there are exceptions such as the security of certain defined premises,
there are no other restrictions upon the photography of anyone in a public place
be they adult or child, civilian, military or police

The get a of jail card makes me cringe Sad

Cringe away, I carry it and am happy with it and it resolves a problem rather than have to argue about it. i also have the full version of "Know your rights" as published by Digital camera magazine, but a short version is easier to use and much more to the point.

Last Modified By Focus_Man at 3 Aug 2012 - 8:55 AM
mikehit
mikehit e2 Member 45761 forum postsmikehit vcard United Kingdom9 Constructive Critique Points
3 Aug 2012 - 9:20 AM

I think there is a world of difference between your legal rights to photograph a building from public property and consideration for other people as to how they may react to you photographing them or their children. And unfortunately the latter is wrapped up in totally unjustified fears about peoples' motives.

As i see it, the OP was about how Jester handled a situation in a way that seems contrary the highly emotional response that seems prevalent at the moment. It was not about the PCSO's right to ask him questions in the first place.



Quote: Do PCSOs have any rights over and above any other civilian?

In some ways they have less rights, but as Keithh says the PCSO's were responding to a request to attend.

I carry a little card which clearly states " ( I don't know how to show it here)

I AM A PHOTOGRAPHER
1 AM NOT A TERRORIST
I AM NOT A PAEDOPHILE ALL IN LARGE CAPITALS WITH THE "NOT" in red and the rest in black followed by this in smaller print.

In UK Law, a photographer can legally take a photograph in any public place.
Whilst there are exceptions such as the security of certain defined premises,
there are no other restrictions upon the photography of anyone in a public place
be they adult or child, civilian, military or police

The get a of jail card makes me cringe Sad

Cringe away, I carry it and am happy with it and it resolves a problem rather than have to argue about it. i also have the full version of "Know your rights" as published by Digital camera magazine, but a short version is easier to use and much more to the point.

Situations as described in the OP can rapidly deteriorate once people start talking about 'rights' and if the card helps you to avoid getting into thta discussion in the first place then in a way I see the card as defusing the situation in a different way to the OP.

Carabosse
Carabosse e2 Member 1139367 forum postsCarabosse vcard England269 Constructive Critique Points
3 Aug 2012 - 12:00 PM


Quote: The speeding one or two mile an hour over thing is just a lazy thoughtless and vacuous thing and an insult to our intelligence on here. Every single person I have ever been a passenger with has exceeded the speed limit. Absolutely and without question, every one and not one in 45 yrs has one ever been stopped. The amount of people who get stopped every time they speed is an absolute minute and unverifiable fraction. The police just are NOT there catching only minor speeding offenders - is just utter nonsense. Cameras get the VAST majority of speeders and actual patrols account for a minor fraction of the very few that get prosecuted or fined. You don't even get prosecuted at one or two mph over the limit to the best of my knowledge as the amount over before prosecution is more than that and certainly from acpo guidelines. When I was ever on speed camera duty as an officer on patrol it was only ever on quiet shifts and we would always respond to calls. I will assume a level of humour from the winking icon but still post the response as it is easy to make a point then cover yourself with a winky just in case

Methinks the gentleman doth protest too much! I was not being literal and would have hoped he had sufficient up top to realise it. Wink

There was a whole TV series very recently about police fiddling statistics ("laddering" etc), so let's not pretend it does not go on.

keithh
keithh  1022557 forum posts Wallis and Futuna29 Constructive Critique Points
3 Aug 2012 - 12:21 PM


Quote: There was a whole TV series very recently about police fiddling statistics ("laddering" etc), so let's not pretend it does not go on.

I assume you mean the fictional 'Line of Duty.'

Carabosse
Carabosse e2 Member 1139367 forum postsCarabosse vcard England269 Constructive Critique Points
3 Aug 2012 - 12:28 PM


Quote: I assume you mean the fictional 'Line of Duty.'

I do indeed. Their advisers were retired cops, as I understand it. The current police were not co-operative.............. strangely enough!

Coleslaw
Coleslaw e2 Member 813402 forum postsColeslaw vcard Wales28 Constructive Critique Points
3 Aug 2012 - 12:35 PM

For some reason, I keep thinking this is a thread about someone wanted to put water feature in their garden and asking about planning permission etc....Grin

keithh
keithh  1022557 forum posts Wallis and Futuna29 Constructive Critique Points
3 Aug 2012 - 12:44 PM


Quote: I do indeed. Their advisers were retired cops

Most TV fictional 'Cop' shows are advised by retired officers and not serving.

Jestertheclown
3 Aug 2012 - 12:44 PM


Quote: For some reason, I keep thinking this is a thread about someone wanted to put water feature in their garden and asking about planning permission etc....Grin


Even that would have led to a row!

macroman
macroman  1115312 forum posts England
3 Aug 2012 - 12:46 PM

It seems that the general consensus here is that photographers should not seek to enforce their rights to take photographs in case it upsets Mr Plod.

Of course, other minority groups can exercise their 'rights' willy nilly, creating massive disruption and even resorting to violence in some cases.

The individual is an easy target as usual.

mikehit
mikehit e2 Member 45761 forum postsmikehit vcard United Kingdom9 Constructive Critique Points
3 Aug 2012 - 1:04 PM


Quote: It seems that the general consensus here is that photographers should not seek to enforce their rights to take photographs in case it upsets Mr Plod.

I see it more about how those rights are asserted.
Some seem to be resentful that others suspect them of doing something dodgy and take an aggressive standpoint, others accept that someone have a different point of view and take a more discusrive approach. And there is a load of people in between.

Carabosse
Carabosse e2 Member 1139367 forum postsCarabosse vcard England269 Constructive Critique Points
3 Aug 2012 - 1:07 PM


Quote: Most TV fictional 'Cop' shows are advised by retired officers and not serving

I know that, but there was a specific statement which (as I recall) came up before the credits on the last of the series which indicated the serving police had actually been asked, but declined to help.


Quote: For some reason, I keep thinking this is a thread about someone wanted to put water feature in their garden and asking about planning permission etc...

You're not alone! Grin


Quote: It seems that the general consensus here is that photographers should not seek to enforce their rights to take photographs in case it upsets Mr Plod.

Of course, other minority groups can exercise their 'rights' willy nilly, creating massive disruption and even resorting to violence in some cases.

The individual is an easy target as usual.

Well put, Ivan. I would very likely take the easy way out myself, I have to admit.

I am 100% in support of the work of the police and PCSOs........... when it is properly targeted. I do suspect that the interruption of Brendan's lawful activities may go down as a 'crime prevention' statistic. Successive governments are to blame - they put great emphasis on stats and league tables. It is little wonder that organisations of all types succumb to concentrating on presentational issues. Jobs can depend upon it.

Focus_Man
Focus_Man  4481 forum posts United Kingdom631 Constructive Critique Points
3 Aug 2012 - 4:59 PM


Quote: . Absolutely and without question, every one and not one in 45 yrs has one ever been stopped. The amount of people who get stopped every time they speed is an absolute minute and unverifiable fraction. The police just are NOT there catching only minor speeding offenders - is just utter nonsense. Cameras get the VAST majority of speeders and actual patrols account for a minor fraction of the very few that get prosecuted or fined. You don't even get prosecuted at one or two mph over the limit to the best of my knowledge as the amount over before prosecution is more than that and certainly from acpo guidelines.

In Wales up until last year the chief of police was one Mr. Brumstrom AKA the mad mullah of traffic.

All his men were out daily and dedicated to catching speeding motorists, often, where 30mph roads came out of a town and became 50mph, he would make about 3 miles of the 50 limit 30mph for about 12 months and catch loads of speeders before reverting it back to 50mph. Traders in North Wales had meetings with him because trade dropped off when almost every tourist went home with a ticket for 60.00. 31mph resulted in a course of driving which cost you 60.00 but at least you did not get any points on your licence.

Thank heavens he has now gone to a new job with his union the Association of Chief Police Officers or something like that but at least we all now feel better about driving around, the traders are happy and the guy who used to run the safe driving course is redundant.

As a police officer you must have heard about him as his own officers used to complain about his attitude. Ignoring drug takers and pushers in and around Colwyn bay, but do not dare to drive at 31mph!!!!!!!!!

Apparently his daughter was trapped speeding but was never prosecuted.

Last Modified By Focus_Man at 3 Aug 2012 - 5:00 PM
Paul Morgan
Paul Morgan e2 Member 1214383 forum postsPaul Morgan vcard England6 Constructive Critique Points
3 Aug 2012 - 6:14 PM


Quote: Of course, other minority groups can exercise their 'rights' willy nilly, creating massive disruption and even resorting to violence in some cases

The last person who I questioned who pulled a card, quickly discovered what a bad move he had made Smile

thewilliam
3 Aug 2012 - 6:19 PM

One commentator described our current situation as "Lucifer's inversion".

Trivial offences like driving at 31mph are prosecuted and drug pushers are ignored. The fine for sorting through the rubbish at a Council dump is 20k and yet "assault by beating" gets a 6 month community order, even though somebody was badly hurt in the beating. An MP who fiddled expenses to the tune of 40k, which is 2 years income for a typical constituent family, was suspended from Parliament for senen days. The typical fine for driving without insurance imposed by our local Court is less than one of the quarterly instalments that I pay to my insurer. Two local thugs beat an innocent man to death and were sentenced to 2 and 3 years and the judge described the penalty "as an example".

The problem with targets is that it encourages the police to go for the easy options at the expense of crimes where innocent people really have suffered.

Last Modified By thewilliam at 3 Aug 2012 - 6:20 PM

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