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The water feature and the law.

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monstersnowman


Quote: . Absolutely and without question, every one and not one in 45 yrs has one ever been stopped. The amount of people who get stopped every time they speed is an absolute minute and unverifiable fraction. The police just are NOT there catching only minor speeding offenders - is just utter nonsense. Cameras get the VAST majority of speeders and actual patrols account for a minor fraction of the very few that get prosecuted or fined. You don't even get prosecuted at one or two mph over the limit to the best of my knowledge as the amount over before prosecution is more than that and certainly from acpo guidelines.

In Wales up until last year the chief of police was one Mr. Brumstrom AKA the mad mullah of traffic.

All his men were out daily and dedicated to catching speeding motorists, often, where 30mph roads came out of a town and became 50mph, he would make about 3 miles of the 50 limit 30mph for about 12 months and catch loads of speeders before reverting it back to 50mph. Traders in North Wales had meetings with him because trade dropped off when almost every tourist went home with a ticket for 60.00. 31mph resulted in a course of driving which cost you 60.00 but at least you did not get any points on your licence.

Thank heavens he has now gone to a new job with his union the Association of Chief Police Officers or something like that but at least we all now feel better about driving around, the traders are happy and the guy who used to run the safe driving course is redundant.

As a police officer you must have heard about him as his own officers used to complain about his attitude. Ignoring drug takers and pushers in and around Colwyn bay, but do not dare to drive at 31mph!!!!!!!!!

Apparently his daughter was trapped speeding but was never prosecuted.

I retired after I'll health some years ago so no .. I don't know him and at 31 mph I would have absolutely no fear of being prosecuted .. Also I can't comment on his daughter's escape (but i LOVE the fact that you absolve yourself almost knowingly from passing on an untruth by adding the word 'apparently' - lmao, it doesn't give your claim creedance or even make me feel you even believe the account yourself) or others who escape or the several police officers I know who we're prosecuted under force policy of always prosecuting police officers when civilians would have had no action or cautions - which I have direct ersonal experience of. I also doubt routine patrols involved in speeding control have absolutely any organised involvement in the dealings with control of drug dealing ... Also to the best of my knowledge chief police officers do not set road speed limits. I don't know where you get your information from but most of it is questionable without any research whatsoever and I know that police officers often moan about their superiors, both reasonably and unreasonably just like any employee. Show me a factory or company that doesn't have a large number of employees willing to say their boss hasn't got a clue and I will be amazed ... The post you made has as many holes as a sieve. It sounds more like something taken from a tabloid rant.

It doesn't change my point that most speeders go unchallenged most of their lives except by machines and actual police are really not diverted by stopping speeders - i certainly NEVER was. I still have never been stopped or been in a car stopped despite speeding myself very occasionally or in cars almost always speeding. Make of that what you will.

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monstersnowman


Quote: One commentator described our current situation as "Lucifer's inversion".

Trivial offences like driving at 31mph are prosecuted and drug pushers are ignored. The fine for sorting through the rubbish at a Council dump is 20k and yet "assault by beating" gets a 6 month community order, even though somebody was badly hurt in the beating. An MP who fiddled expenses to the tune of 40k, which is 2 years income for a typical constituent family, was suspended from Parliament for senen days. The typical fine for driving without insurance imposed by our local Court is less than one of the quarterly instalments that I pay to my insurer. Two local thugs beat an innocent man to death and were sentenced to 2 and 3 years and the judge described the penalty "as an example".

The problem with targets is that it encourages the police to go for the easy options at the expense of crimes where innocent people really have suffered.

Are people really prosecuted at 31 mph or is it just a silly, biased, unsubstantiated myth that even you don't really believe but peddle for sake of supporting an unsupportable opinion, otherwise why would you resort to using an obviiously doubtful, unsupportable or at least questionable myth.

I don't believe drug dealing is ignored although it can be a difficult offence for ordinary patrol officers with no experience or substantiated and reliable evidence to identify and target offenders and officers may at that time feel I'll-equipped or unsupported enough to deal with the situation or that the situation in that area may be being dealt with by other departments and to blunder in may damage ongoing work. I know that as a gp officer we informally knew to leave dealings with street prostitutes to the specialised department.

The fundamental problem with your post is that In my experience I and most other officers didnt generally follow through prosecution files to check sentences unless we attended court (which was rare) as it quickly became demoralising and we as a police force also didn't have ANYHTHING to do with sentencing so any inequality or bias in sentencing is a ridiculous argument as police forces DONT set sentences. Any inequality between maximum council fines fr dump offences and actual court fines for assault are ridiculous and incomparable. When did you last hear of someone fined 20k for going through dump rubbish .. Really ??? You sound like a bad tabloid hack's vitriolic rant now, comparing a theoretical maximum, like dog fouling or dropping litter with a real sentence - they don't bear any meaningful relationship and you know it. The result of driving without insurance is potentially crushing a 30k car for not having insurance that may have lapsed by a few days or indeed been 400 for a whole year, even before we consider the court fine. Also mp's got prison sentences for claiming expenses on first conviction where hundreds and thousands of offenders up and down the country each week walk free with community or supervision orders, suspended sentences or cautions for offences with similar or greater financial losses. And to suggest we (the police) decided what to deal with on a momentary or day to day basis of a lottery such as potential sentences is laughable ... It never ceases to amaze me how silly, uneducated, unrealistic and downright ludicrous some beliefs are when posted by someone about something they really have no real practical knowledge.

I do however agree with the futility of targets. I, as a probationary officer, had to find a certain amount of traffic offences such as tax discs, and document check requests (hort1) - thankfully I said bollocks to it and still passed my probation ... After probation that never happened but I am quite prepared to accept that it may happen on a managerial level now at least and pressure filter down to officers.

Focus_Man
Focus_Man  4481 forum posts United Kingdom631 Constructive Critique Points
4 Aug 2012 - 8:51 AM


Quote: I retired after I'll health some years ago so no .. I don't know him and at 31 mph I would have absolutely no fear of being prosecuted .. Also I can't comment on his daughter's escape (but i LOVE the fact that you absolve yourself almost knowingly from passing on an untruth by adding the word 'apparently' - lmao, it doesn't give your claim creedance or even make me feel you even believe the account yourself) or others who escape or the several police officers I know who we're prosecuted under force policy of always prosecuting police officers when civilians would have had no action or cautions - which I have direct ersonal experience of. I also doubt routine patrols involved in speeding control have absolutely any organised involvement in the dealings with control of drug dealing ... Also to the best of my knowledge chief police officers do not set road speed limits. I don't know where you get your information from but most of it is questionable without any research whatsoever and I know that police officers often moan about their superiors, both reasonably and unreasonably just like any employee. Show me a factory or company that doesn't have a large number of employees willing to say their boss hasn't got a clue and I will be amazed ... The post you made has as many holes as a sieve. It sounds more like something taken from a tabloid rant.

It doesn't change my point that most speeders go unchallenged most of their lives except by machines and actual police are really not diverted by stopping speeders - i certainly NEVER was. I still have never been stopped or been in a car stopped despite speeding myself very occasionally or in cars almost always speeding. Make of that what you will.

No Holes at all sir. I said 'apparently' because I only saw reports on national TV and in local (North Wales) newspapers about his daughter. Those same newspapers, N Wales TV, and locals in discussion, traders arranging meetings etc ensured the facts were well advertised because of the problems he caused. As an ex copper, why not try to contact some N Wales coppers who were there at the time as it is all true. I did not say anything about moaning that 'He didn't have a clue', they moaned because of his attitude to drug pushers and takers whilst hounding the motorist. To avoid feeling that my comment has holes like a sieve, I suggest you read it again.

I personally was fined 60 for 33mph and later for another offence of 31mph, I had to attend a driving awareness course in North Wales. Close to my holiday home, a stretch of 50mph road was changed to 30mph for 12 months with police attending with speed cameras picking up loads of 'offenders'. Despite what I believe to be the 'rules' police with speed cameras could be seen roadside, behind trees and on bends where you would suddenly arrive on top of a camera.

I personally found myself driving around with my eyes on my speedo rather than the road (I have cruise control now but I didn't then) which I felt was unsafe. All my friends in the area of my holiday home had similar experiences and the N Wales Tourist authority was inundated with requests to add within the brochure encouraging people to visit, that you would return home with 3 points on your licence. Again that was reported on TV and in local N Wales newspapers.

As I say, as you seem to doubt this, contact ex north wales policemen, (who incidentally created a web site anonymously to criticise their boss as they were the laughing stock of other police when they met up on courses.) and ask them to comment on Mr Brunstrom - the Mad Mullah of traffic. All true my friend i assure you,. It was however totally untypical of the police forces in general, just North Wales. He has gone now and the roads are safer.

Last Modified By Focus_Man at 4 Aug 2012 - 8:54 AM
Ewanneil
Ewanneil  41118 forum posts Scotland2 Constructive Critique Points
4 Aug 2012 - 9:10 AM


Quote: Mr Brunstrom - the Mad Mullah of traffic. All true my friend i assure you,. It was however totally untypical of the police forces in general, just North Wales. He has gone now and the roads are safer.

Mr Brunstrom was certainly infamous amongst motorcyclists because of his rather strident policies. He appeared to be trying to make it impossible to travel through his area on a motorbike. This prompted several campaigns against him including mass "invasions" of bikers. He had to back down in the end.

On the other matter my wife got done for speeding a few years back - 61mph in a 60mph area. She was mystified when the penalty notice came through. She contacted the local police to seek an explanation. She spoke to at least 3 officers who all said it must be a mistake. It turned out that they, like my wife, didn't know that the speed limit for a van (a commercial vehicle) on an "A-road" is 50 mph. The fine and the penalty points were duly added much to my wife's shame.

Jestertheclown
4 Aug 2012 - 10:13 AM


Quote: the Mad Mullah of traffic.

Isn't there a clue in that name?

I don't claim to know anything about this guy beyond what I've seen in the papers but the tabloids loved him.
The Daily Mail's Richard Littlejohn used to write great articles about him but he's only ever been 'famous' to my knowledge for his approach to traffic offences.
I can't recall ever reading that he was a soft touch for drug dealers or other 'proper' criminals.
And surely no-one actually believes what they read in the papers?

Last Modified By Jestertheclown at 4 Aug 2012 - 10:14 AM
Focus_Man
Focus_Man  4481 forum posts United Kingdom631 Constructive Critique Points
4 Aug 2012 - 10:50 AM


Quote: the Mad Mullah of traffic.
Isn't there a clue in that name?

I don't claim to know anything about this guy beyond what I've seen in the papers but the tabloids loved him.
The Daily Mail's Richard Littlejohn used to write great articles about him but he's only ever been 'famous' to my knowledge for his approach to traffic offences.
I can't recall ever reading that he was a soft touch for drug dealers or other 'proper' criminals.
And surely no-one actually believes what they read in the papers?

If you ever had to drive through North Wales whilst he was in charge, you wouldn't need to read the papers. You would get it first hand together with 3 points on your licence, believe me.

Focus_Man
Focus_Man  4481 forum posts United Kingdom631 Constructive Critique Points
4 Aug 2012 - 10:56 AM

Have a little read of this as well. It also mentions his attitude to drugs as I mentioned earlier. I don't just take a guess at things that I quote.

North Wales Police

Brunstrom joined North Wales Police as Deputy Chief Constable in January 2000, and was appointed Chief Constable of the Force in January 2001. Throughout his tenure, Brunstrom has courted controversy with his campaign against speeding drivers, and his support for speed cameras has drawn criticism from motorist groups. His vociferous action against speeding and other traffic crimes has led to his being nicknamed the "Mad Mullah of the Traffic Taliban", and to accusations of being "obsessed" with speeding at the expense of catching criminals, and led The Sun newspaper to catch Brunstrom's daughter exceeding the speed limit by 19 miles per hour in the family car. Brunstrom claims his policy was responsible for a reduction in traffic injuries. His views on traffic law enforcement caused him to be a consistent subject of ridicule on the BBC Two program Top Gear.

Brunstrom has called for the decriminalisation of all drugs including heroin and cocaine and has urged the Government to declare an end to the "failed" war on illegal narcotics.

Brunstrom has been praised for his action against anti-social behaviour and his learning and promotion of the Welsh language, and being the first Chief Constable to have his own blog. Previously he was ACPO's head of road policing policy, head of the UKs National Wildlife Crime Unit, and police co-ordinator on drugs policy across Wales.

In September 2007, as a demonstration of support for Tasers being trialled in rural areas of North Wales, Brunstrom volunteered to be tasered by his fellow officers. Video footage of the event was posted on the force's website; Brunstrom was tasered for 1.5 seconds, and swore as he lost control of his body. Afterwards he described the event as "Not pleasant" and warned "I very strongly advise you, if faced by an officer and a Taser, that you follow the instructions of the nice police officer, because you will not enjoy the consequences of disobedience.".

During refurbishment work at North Wales Police headquarters in December 2007 Brunstrom staged a break-in, scaling scaffolding attached to the building and climbing through a window. It was initially claimed that this was a stunt to expose lax security., but a Freedom of Information request subsequently revealed that this was a fabrication; the real reason for the 'break-in' was that Brunstrom's

Last Modified By Focus_Man at 4 Aug 2012 - 10:58 AM
Jestertheclown
4 Aug 2012 - 11:17 AM


Quote: The Sun newspaper to catch Brunstrom's daughter exceeding the speed limit by 19 miles per hour in the family car

She was caught by the Sun newspaper . . . ?

. . . must be true then.

Focus_Man
Focus_Man  4481 forum posts United Kingdom631 Constructive Critique Points
4 Aug 2012 - 11:26 AM

Even the Sun can get hold of speed guns you know, and know a lot more about this guy than you do.

Try the BBC, they can't all be wrong. Also read all the rest instead of cherrypicking, about drugs etc and bear in mind Sun, Guardian or whatever, Brunstrom never took legal action not did he deny the facts as written. He was known, sussed and written about as a mad mullah, the name speaks for itself. If you like the mad mullah they try to become his friend instead of attempting to berate me, the messenger.

Everything stated about him regarding his attitude to speeding motorists that is anything over the limit - even 1mph as well as his attitude to drugs is well documented and has not been challenged by him because it is all true as he himself has been reported at serious meetings when the press take note in detail of his comments. so no more having a go, just take it as true and learn from it.

have a look at this , paste it into yoru browser for more info.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/3462885.stm

Last Modified By Focus_Man at 4 Aug 2012 - 11:28 AM
Jestertheclown
4 Aug 2012 - 11:35 AM


Quote: the press take note in detail of his comments.

Then print their own version.
You're talking about the Sun here. They're not exactly renowned for the accuracy of their reporting. Neither, for that matter is the BBC.

Focus_Man
Focus_Man  4481 forum posts United Kingdom631 Constructive Critique Points
4 Aug 2012 - 1:20 PM

He would be suing them if they were wrong in their reportage. I already said that, so they are not printing their own version. I was speaking as I and many friends found it in North Wales, that IS NOT hearsay - true experiences of the mad mullah, Richard Brunstrom, all true, no hearsay no incorrect reportage, all true and from personal experience. Lots of us were fined 60 for 2/3 miles over and 1mph over got you on the driving course.

monstersnowman

Would he sue, on what basis do you know exactly what the chief would sue for and whether indeed suing everyone who said something not quite true, lies or misleading would be a) affordable, b) constructive, c) in his overall interest d) in the slightest bit effective, etc etc and who is to say these accounts are honest accounts?

Like I said .. 1 mph no prosecution ... a course.

I'm bowing out of this before anyone again suggests I am on a treetop crusade or shouting down opinion and before some crusader, shouting from the treetops shouts my opinion down Wink

Anyway this has gone so far off topic it is just a time thief.

Have fun kids ....

Jestertheclown


Quote: Anyway this has gone so far off topic it is just a time thief.


Agreed.

See Ya!

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