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Time for a whole new PC....Help!

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GlennH
GlennH  91894 forum posts France1 Constructive Critique Points
25 Dec 2013 - 8:21 PM

Apple don't really polarise opinion with regard to monitors, at least amongst people that know about monitors. A high-end Eizo or NEC will trump an Apple display in several ways - they're just more refined and better geared to precise calibration. Once you know that, the argument is about how much it matters (especially amongst hobbyist photographers). Apple are all about making things look nice. These 'debates' (if that's what they are) couldn't be more pointless - if an OS or display makes your experience more enjoyable, or is important to you, there's no more to be said.

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whatriveristhis
whatriveristhis e2 Member 163 forum postswhatriveristhis vcard England70 Constructive Critique Points
25 Dec 2013 - 9:32 PM


Quote: ... Apple are all about making things look nice.

With respect, that's pure nonsense, and is so bigoted it doesn't even deserve an argument.


Quote: These 'debates' (if that's what they are) couldn't be more pointless

Well you seem to have contributed pretty heavily to this one, so obviously you enjoy wasting your time.
I don't, so " Thank you and goodnight... "

keithh
keithh  1022797 forum posts Wallis and Futuna29 Constructive Critique Points
25 Dec 2013 - 9:57 PM

Which would you rather have? An Apple Monitor or an LG monitor?

Wink

GlennH
GlennH  91894 forum posts France1 Constructive Critique Points
25 Dec 2013 - 10:01 PM

I don't care about 'the argument', and I'm sorry if you perceived the quoted statement as bigoted. I'd certainly concede that I'm likely doing Apple an injustice by merely reflecting on the good looks of their products. Of course they're about more than that, but they don't make better monitors than Eizo or NEC. If your impassioned response is only as a result of my disagreeing with your statement, you should reflect on your own bigotry.

KurtSkeels
KurtSkeels e2 Member 11963 forum postsKurtSkeels vcard United Kingdom1 Constructive Critique Points
26 Dec 2013 - 9:56 AM


Quote: . . . just Google a few words like Mac Issues or Mac Problems, You will get a million pages of pain and agony being endured by Mac owners all over the planet.

Fact a computer is a computer no matter what brand or badge is on the case/box, Fact computers go wrong, Fact computer users are usually to blame, Fact there are just as many idiots using Macs as there are any other brand of computer.

Fact your getting nothing special by buying a Mac, All you get is an overpriced computer with a very expensive warranty scheme.



I've used computers for too many years to mention and have not suffered the problems with Macs implied here. In fact now a few years into retirement I have used macs at home as my desktop of choice, again without problems. Regarding the warranty, I bought my most recent model from John Lewis and it came with a three year warranty, as computers are just about defunct after three or four years I figure that is a good deal. The one drawback for those who want to upgrade their own machine is that the iMac is not really suitable for this, apart from hanging off a few disk drives.

Macs have long been the favourite in publishing and was, in fact, the first platform to run Photoshop and the reason I got into Apple Computers originally.

Kurt

Dingus
Dingus e2 Member 129 forum postsDingus vcard Scotland
27 Dec 2013 - 8:25 PM

Hi Chris. All the guys are offering loads of advice, which is good. However, unless I missed a post, building or buying a PC is like buying a vehicle.
You need to decide what you want it for. You wouldn't buy a Ferrari to take 12 kids to school. As you wouldn't buy a people carrier to do Le Mans.
This is regardless if you go Mac or PC.

I'm an X computer Engineer from the early PCs to Main Frames. I've built many many PCs while working for NCR, De La Rue systems plus others. I've installed hundreds of PCs with software from MS or DR dos, Windows 3.1 all the way through to the latest one I'm on now Windows 7. I mention all these to show I have loads of knowledge of Windows OS............. So I say......... Go Mac.
Why? Because Microsoft repeatedly change their operating software and then stop supporting it, which makes you have to buy a completely new OS from them. Mac do upgrades.
Don't get involved in the Mac V PC debate over anything but the cost of changing OS. They are like Ford V Vauxhall, Merc V Lexus. Both do exactly the same job, just in different ways.

These guys are giving you good advice on Scan and Overclockers. I only buy from them as their prices are usually excellent. Only thing I'd say is go MUCH bigger for storage. If you can afford it, the bigger the better. My own PC (Server) has 4 drives. One for the OS and the rest as storage, the biggest being 4TB. Don't forget you can also use RAID 1 or 2.
Solid state has little advantage at present, but do get the fastest spin speed and seek times if you go normal drive.
DON'T skimp on your power supply. I'd rather have double the Wattage than just enough.
I don't put a lot out on my CD drives as I only ever use them to load software so don't need the speed you need for watching films etc.
If, as I suspect, you are going to store photos then get a memory card reader as they are much quicker. Especially for RAW.

To sum up:
What I'd say Chris. If you decide to go for PC, don't be scared of building it. PCs now a days are all modular and go together like Lego. EASY. However, If you don't have good knowledge on what items match others, then buy from the one supplier and ask them to do the checking for you. These guys are usually REALY helpful.

This is also a bit of a cheat. Once you have a good idea of what you want, go onto Dell's site and use their system builder to configure one. Then take note of what you have. JOB DONE, buy from Scan or Overclockers. Sorry Dell.

Last Modified By Dingus at 27 Dec 2013 - 8:47 PM
VanDiesil
VanDiesil  1 United Kingdom
4 Jan 2014 - 12:17 PM

Sorry BigDingus, but some of what you wrote is misleading.

I have been in the IT industry for the past 24 years, building, configuring & repairing systems at component level (bring back manual component configuration with jumpers & DIP switches over Plug & Pray any day of the week).


Quote: Because Microsoft repeatedly change their operating software and then stop supporting it, which makes you have to buy a completely new OS from them. Mac do upgrades.

Not entirely correct. 10 years+ for an OS life span is pretty good going. XP is only just going in to "end of life" cycle in the coming months. Windows 7 is extremely stable at the moment & it may have a lesser life span than XP has had, but as Windows 8 drivers are built on the same subsystem as Windows 7 drivers are, then future products and developments will still work and be supported under W7.


Quote: Don't forget you can also use RAID 1 or 2

I have NEVER seen a desktop board supporting any RAID array structures other than 0, 1, 5, 10 or JBoD. RAID 0 or 1 is more than adequate for users. RAID0 for speed & RAID1 for data redundancy. Some boards support RAID 0+1 configurations, but the additional expense on redundant disks is more than what most users can afford to spend for the minimal performance increase. Much cheaper to add a NAS drive in for backup purposes.


Quote: Solid state has little advantage at present, but do get the fastest spin speed and seek times if you go normal drive.

Sorry, but are you for real here? Using a single SSD as the main system drive with the OS & applications on it, will blow away even the fastest spindle speed platter based HDD's running in a RAID0 configuration in perfomance. The optimum combination for a desktop machine is a SSD as the system drive and RAID0 for storage. Using a SSD for storage is of no benefit with regards to real world usage and as SSD's have a finite lifespan with regards to read/writes, using it for storage will lower the lifespan of it. Remember for optimal longevity from a SSD, to have the main partition 20% less than the total capacity. This is for what is known as Overprovisioning and will keep the drive operating at it's fastest speed and also if any blocks on the NAND memory start to fail, the drive will be remapped to use the 20% that has not been used.


Quote: DON'T skimp on your power supply. I'd rather have double the Wattage than just enough.

Although I do agree with the first sentence, the actual Wattage of the PSU is not what you should be looking at. A cheap 700W PSU will operate as well as a better quality 500W. Stable currents are more important than actual outputted wattage. If the current fluctuates too much, then the machine will BSOD or shut down. More expensive PSU's do not fluctuate as much and a lower output will keep a machine running where a cheaper higher wattage PSU will cause drop outs - especially on high powered machines. My personal machine runs a good quality 650W PSU and has not once dropped out or failed, where other machines I have built to customers specifications where they have chosen a cheaper 1000w PSU against my advice and have had problems until the PSU has been changed for a good quality lower wattage one. Also a higher wattage than required PSU will cost more to run on the old electric bill (try it and you will be surprised even if it seems that less current is being pulled from it).


Quote: I don't put a lot out on my CD drives as I only ever use them to load software so don't need the speed you need for watching films etc.

The optical drive depends on what the user is using it for. If they need to regularly provide portfolio's, wedding photo's, etc on optical media, then a GOOD drive will give consistent results on good media. I have always used Plextor drives on high end systems due to their reliability, especially with burning media for customers. Backing up large amounts of RAW images to Blu-Ray media is also an option for processed images. Less discs laying around.


As for PC vs MAC. If you use applications that are only available on MAC, then go MAC. Other than that, go with your head as Photoshop, Lightroom, etc operate exactly the same on both platforms. Buy the right configuration in a Windows based system, and it will perform better than the equivalent PRICED MAC.

KenTaylor
KenTaylor e2 Member 92972 forum postsKenTaylor vcard United Kingdom2 Constructive Critique Points
4 Jan 2014 - 1:17 PM

So there you have it leaving one in the same state of confusion Wink
Professionals in all fields have their own standards.

I recall one of the mono groups that was being formed with one saying it was pointless unless you use a high end monitor with a four figure price tag.

thewilliam
4 Jan 2014 - 1:34 PM

In our workroom, we have both Eizo ColorEdge and lesser monitors.

The Eizo will display the ARGB gamut and so is used for commercial work where we need to see the colours that we deliver to our clients, mostly in electronic form.

Most of our work is social and sRGB is more appropriate so a good but not great monitor, one tenth of the price of the Eizo, will do the job.

keithh
keithh  1022797 forum posts Wallis and Futuna29 Constructive Critique Points
4 Jan 2014 - 1:44 PM

Way to much is made of a monitors ability to display the full Adobe RGB color space as most of this color critical work will end up in the hands of those using Mac screens which will display about 80 odd percent of it.....and much of it will end up in the hands of those using lesser screens still, or being printed by a machine incapable of matching the gamut.

And I speak as someone who comes from years of daily color critical work on a large scale.

lemmy
lemmy  71773 forum posts United Kingdom
4 Jan 2014 - 2:10 PM


Quote: Solid state has little advantage at present, but do get the fastest spin speed and seek times if you go normal drive.

That can only have been written by someone who has no experience of SSD for their OS, program files and LR catalog.

I think anyone who has actually set their machine up with SSD would agree that it is the best and most cost effective general purpose upgrade you can make.

This Mac/ PC thing gets tedious doesn't it? It is mainly about people who have bought one or the other trying to convince themselves that they have done the right thing. It's your money, why do you want someone else to use the same computer you do? Why would anyone care?

And monitors, why would you not use the best you can afford? It may be that the results of your work will be viewed on a monitor that will only display 80% of the best but surely that is no reason not to work to the highest standards you can. Can someone explain to me the point of buying a quality camera for hundreds if not thousands of pounds and then editing and viewing the results on a second rate monitor?

GlennH
GlennH  91894 forum posts France1 Constructive Critique Points
4 Jan 2014 - 2:47 PM

The gamut of the monitor doesn't, strictly speaking, determine its quality. If you view an image whose gamut is contained by sRGB on an sRGB monitor, theoretically you're viewing it with finer gradation than you would be on an equivalent wide-gamut monitor (though most wide-gamut monitors also have a greater bit-depth to counter this). I believe it's still possible to buy a high-end sRGB Eizo, even if they're cheaper than wide-gamut equivalents.

A wide-gamut monitor is arguably a good thing for home-printers to own, since its gamut is always more likely to encompass the output of an inkjet printer. They also tend to look nicer (I run an sRGB and ARGB monitor side by side). One minor drawback is garish colours in non-colour-managed applications.

KenTaylor
KenTaylor e2 Member 92972 forum postsKenTaylor vcard United Kingdom2 Constructive Critique Points
4 Jan 2014 - 2:49 PM

We need to use common sense for those with no aspirations to enter the commercial field.

thewilliam
4 Jan 2014 - 5:48 PM


Quote: We need to use common sense for those with no aspirations to enter the commercial field.

Indeed! which is why it's important to realize that, if we choose carefully, we can buy a good monitor that's "good enough" for one-tenth of the price of an Eizo ColorEdge.

Lemmy speaks from experience when he stresses that professionals need to work to the highest standards whereas many amateurs like to! It always saddens me how many "professionals" in the graphics and printing trades don't bother to colour-manage their work.

GlennH
GlennH  91894 forum posts France1 Constructive Critique Points
4 Jan 2014 - 6:36 PM


Quote: Indeed! which is why it's important to realize that, if we choose carefully, we can buy a good monitor that's "good enough" for one-tenth of the price of an Eizo ColorEdge.

However... why is it important? It seems no more important to me than trying to convince most amateurs that they don't need a Canon 5D MK III, or a Nikon D800. The only difference is, monitors are little understood and more of an afterthought—the 'thing' we view our pictures on. You do get what you pay for in a monitor, even if the calibration capability of high-end monitors is superfluous to all but the most 'serious' photographers (deluded or otherwise).

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