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To vaccinate or not? Maybe this article will help.

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Kako
Kako  8140 forum posts
6 Nov 2009 - 5:10 PM

Have just seen this latest article from Dr Mercola website
giving much useful information about what is in the various
vaccines being offered both here in Europe and in US. Find the link here (hopefully!) Personally I think this information should be provided by our government, not left to private individuals to have to ferret around to get the basics to allow some sort of an informed decision.

Vaccine ingredients and Info.

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6 Nov 2009 - 5:10 PM

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Boyd
Boyd  1011213 forum posts Wales11 Constructive Critique Points
6 Nov 2009 - 5:22 PM


Quote: get the basics to allow some sort of an informed decision

Just make sure that those basics are correct before basing any decisions on them.

Daffy1
Daffy1  6336 forum posts Ireland
6 Nov 2009 - 5:25 PM

The vaccine debate again, from over 20 years experience and giving thousands of vaccine to people of all ages etc etc.THE VACCINE IS ALWAYS SAFER THAN THE DISEASE IT IS PREVENTING.

DAMIAN

Kako
Kako  8140 forum posts
6 Nov 2009 - 5:43 PM

Boyd

Joseph Albietz in his putdown of Mercola's earlier article you have linked to above uses references in his bibliography that are generally 5-6 years old, in one case much older than this. Mercola
draws his conclusions from much more recent research which Albietz chooses to ignore.

StrayCat
StrayCat e2 Member 1014648 forum postsStrayCat vcard Canada2 Constructive Critique Points
6 Nov 2009 - 6:45 PM

In almost all cases the overwellming recommendation by health Dept. officials (who can make mistakes), doctors, and scientists is that we should be vaccinated. FYI, I read an article 2 days ago that said of the 152 H1N1 pacients in hospital in British Columbia, Canada, the vast majority are children under the age of 2 years.

I want to get it, because I've just now been diagnosed with diabetes; now that I know, it explains a lot of things for me, I believe it's been on my doorstep for a year or more. I'm not the first person to get it, and I see it as another challenge in life, but right now it's out of control, and I'm isolating myself till we get more vaccine.

Hopefully, I've already had a strain of this flu in the 60's. I was very ill for a month as a young child, and they thought it was polio, as it was at the time of a large polio outbreak, which was stopped by a vaccine.

Last Modified By StrayCat at 6 Nov 2009 - 6:49 PM
cambirder
cambirder  107202 forum posts England
6 Nov 2009 - 7:01 PM


Quote: I think this information should be provided by our government, not left to private individuals to have to ferret around to get the basics to allow some sort of an informed decision.

So you want the government to actively promote snake oil salesmen?

stolzy
stolzy  83753 forum posts7 Constructive Critique Points
6 Nov 2009 - 7:04 PM


Quote: Joseph Albietz in his putdown of Mercola's earlier article you have linked to above uses references in his bibliography that are generally 5-6 years old, in one case much older than this.

There's a good reason for that, the safety of the adjuvants which Mercola claims are dangerous has been long-established. No point in endlessly testing things which have been shown to be safe.

I don't see any references at all in Mercola's article - maybe you could point me to them. Most of the links in the article point to subscription pages.

I wonder why he never published any of this information in a peer-reviewed article in a proper medical journal? No wait a minute - perhaps it was because he MADE IT ALL UP.

Kako
Kako  8140 forum posts
6 Nov 2009 - 11:26 PM

cambirder,

"So you want the government to actively promote snake oil salesmen"

No not at all, Big Pharma is quite capable of promoting itself, usually to the detriment of ordinary citizens.


stolzy,

Your faith in the integrity of the medical/political/pharma complex
is startling to say the least. Do you also believe that aspartame is Gods gift to Coca Cola or Pepsi by any chance?

Mercola states that squalene has not yet been approved by the FDA for use in certain vaccines. Independent research has also implicated squalene in 100,000s of cases of so called Gulf War syndrome. He also makes some thought provoking observations on the dangers of Aluminium as an adjuvant, did you not get that far? The link takes you to a page that can still be read behind the 'subscription' box.


As for 'peer-review', its nice if you have it on your side, but not essential, especially as the impartiality of some of the journals is open to question given their sponsorship by Big Pharma. As for making it up, you need to read more widely. There are many INDEPENDENT researchers out there highlighting failures, errors and omissions in statements made by health professionals, PR types and government appointees. There is so much to correct they don't need to make anything up. Its a full time job keeping up with the latest B.S.

keith selmes
7 Nov 2009 - 12:19 AM

Mercola is a snake oil merchant.
He uses disinformation for self promotion and sells quack medical products to the gullible.
I'm not the only one to take a look and draw that conclusion.

"he is a master promoter, using every trick of traditional and Internet direct marketing to grow his business. (...) He is selling health-care products and services, and is calling upon an unfortunate tradition made famous by the old-time snake oil salesmen of the 1800s."
In Business Week

stolzy
stolzy  83753 forum posts7 Constructive Critique Points
7 Nov 2009 - 12:34 AM


Quote: Your faith in the integrity of the medical/political/pharma complex

Not only do i not have faith in it, I don't even recognise its existence
Quote: Do you also believe that aspartame is Gods gift to Coca Cola or Pepsi by any chance?

That would be a ridiculous thing to believe, and some pettiness is showing
Quote: Mercola states that squalene has not yet been approved by the FDA for use in certain vaccines

Firstly squalene is a naturally occurring ubiquitous compound present in many foodstuffs and manufactured in the human liver. Olive oil contains around 1% squalene - doubtless you avoid olive oil because of this, but many people don't and I don't hear of a lot of toxicity from olive oil.

Squalene is approved in Europe and used as an adjuvant in some vaccines.
But, and here Mercola starts to look a bit stupid, not in the vaccine he is discussing

Quote: He also makes some thought provoking observations on the dangers of Aluminium as an adjuvant, did you not get that far?

I can't read much of the article behind the paywall, but I don't see any references. The aluminium issue has been well studied and it is safe (a search on PubMed will tell you all you need to know. (BTW do you know how much aluminium there is in tea?) In any case, even if it were very toxic it wouldn't matter because the vaccines under discussion do not contain any aluminium. I think Mercola would look a bit more credible if he did some basic fact checking before pontificating from his Ivory Tower of Ignorance.

Quote: As for 'peer-review', its nice if you have it on your side, but not essential

No, not essential, not unless you want somebody to take your work seriously. Without scrutiny and review its just some guy making stuff up and blogging - entirely worthless, except for the victims of such nonsense.

Quote: There are many INDEPENDENT researchers out there highlighting failures, errors and omissions in statements made by health professionals, PR types and government appointees

Funny they are not getting published, doubtless its all a conspiracy in which thousands of, otherwise independently-minded, scientists, hundreds of journals and their thousands of editors and peer reviewers are complicit.

Yep, I'm sure that's the reason.

i think there may be good reasons for doubting Dr Mercola - the FDA (in whom Mercola himself seems to put some faith) seem to think so.

Interesting that you put so much faith in someone who sells his own range of alternative therapies from his website - remedies which have little or no evidence of efficacy or safety other than Mercola's word.

Last Modified By stolzy at 7 Nov 2009 - 12:40 AM
Kako
Kako  8140 forum posts
7 Nov 2009 - 12:58 PM

keith selmes,

When the 'establishment' feels threatened enough to actively discredit and throw doubt on a persons integrity, it is almost a compliment to that person. Citing an attack by one of the Global Elites favourite magazines "Business Week" instantly boosts that persons credibility in my eyes. This magazine doesn't partly depend for its very existence on the advertising revenue from companies losing sales to the 'alternative' health practitioners I take it?


stolzy,

The complex I mentioned has been well documented by countless researchers and operates just like the Military-Industrial complex. It is an incestuous relationship involving corruption, back-handers, jobs for former politicians etc in Big Pharma companies...

I mentioned Aspartame because according to your definition of products that have been extensively tested and proven safe, this is one of the best examples. Nothing could be further from the truth though as anyone with half an hour to spare could discover. It is probably one of the most dangerous additives allowed in food and drink products globally. One of my own sons suffers from epileptic type seizures within hours of consuming it and was hospitalized last time it happened on a school trip. One of the US government team
responsible for approving it after it had initially been refused a license on safety grounds, then switched sides and gained a very lucrative position with the company making it. So no, blind faith in this or US or European governments is completely misplaced. They lie to us on daily basis.

Squalene as i'm sure you are aware is dangerous in vaccines because of the way it is administered, by passing the bodies natural defence mechanisms. Secondary defences that are then triggered cause a massive auto-immuno response to it attacking it where it is found naturally in the body as well as from the injection. Arthritic and MS type afflictions have been linked by several researchers to artificially introduced squalene to a statistically significant degree.
I would rather put my trust in people who bring this to my attention rather than corrupt governments/industries who seek to hide/deny the very same studies.

stolzy
stolzy  83753 forum posts7 Constructive Critique Points
7 Nov 2009 - 1:35 PM

Kako,
You very wisely move the discussion away from the article we were discussing which was about the dangers of the H1N1 vaccine.

You neglected to address the fact that the H1N1 vaccines do not contain squalene and do not contain alumninium. Did that not give you pause to question the veracity of his warnings?

You also didn't address the fact that the snake oil salesman in question, in whom you put so much faith, is a known charletan who has been told to desist from selling medications of unknown efficacy and unknown safety by the FDA.

I'I am at a loss to understand how this person is more deserving of trust than, say a pharmaceutical company.

They are both doing the same thing - the only difference is that the pharma companies have proved their products work whilst Mercola doesn't bother.

You are of course entitled to be vaccinated or not as you choose, but please do so on the basis of the facts, not the mumbo-jumbo of someone tried to sell you an untested alternative.

Last Modified By stolzy at 7 Nov 2009 - 1:37 PM
cambirder
cambirder  107202 forum posts England
7 Nov 2009 - 1:42 PM


Quote: I would rather put my trust in people who bring this to my attention rather than corrupt governments/industries who seek to hide/deny the very same studies.

Yet you would put your trust in a con merchant like Mercola. Unfortunately there are millions like you who allow frauds like Mercola to become very rich, by spreading fear about conventional medicine and then selling their useless potions.

Tell me how many diseases have been eradicated "alternative" medicine? and how cancer patients have saved by these alternative practitioners?

Kako
Kako  8140 forum posts
7 Nov 2009 - 5:44 PM

stolzy,

Are you sure that GSK vaccines don't contain squalene? Perhaps you might re-assure millions of Germans who have been protesting these past few weeks since it was announced that the plebs are to be given vaccines containing squalene and another adjuvant, whilst the government and armed forces are to be given a 'safer' vaccine that does not contain these toxic elements.

You might also be interested in this article by F William Engdahl entitled: "Nano Particles used in Untested H1N1 Swine Flu Vaccines", read here


cambirder,

can you provide details of the court judgement against Mercola and state how long he was imprisoned for or the extent of his fine?
Presumably such a despicable character would have been indicted by now? According to the definitions used by vested interests related to Big Pharma anybody selling vitamin supplements or cod liver oil type products will soon be heavily regulated and banned from implying any health benefit from these products despite hundreds of millions of people worldwide using them quite happily.

I can't answer the question you pose at the end. Conventional medicine could not provide independent verifiable statistics for most of its product range either.

cambirder
cambirder  107202 forum posts England
7 Nov 2009 - 6:49 PM


Quote: Presumably such a despicable character would have been indicted by now? According to the definitions used by vested interests related to Big Pharma anybody selling vitamin supplements or cod liver oil type products will soon be heavily regulated and banned from implying any health benefit from these products despite hundreds of millions of people worldwide using them quite happily.

No I can't but that does not change my view that the guy is a con merchant, and there are many others who manage to stay within the law while carryout large scale cons (the church of scientology for one)


Quote: I can't answer the question you pose at the end. Conventional medicine could not provide independent verifiable statistics for most of its product range either.

Pure BS, you know the answer to both my questions is zero. I wonder if Mercola was spreading his poison around when the WHO was eradicating smallpox on a global scale whether they would actually have succeeded in their mission or would we still be seeing that disease killing millions.

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