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Well said Boris

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mikehit
mikehit  56682 forum posts United Kingdom11 Constructive Critique Points
12 Sep 2012 - 12:39 PM


Quote: Democracy is where the peoples' view is heard not that of their representatives. Our model is flawed as far as democracy is concerned.

So what you are saying is that every piece of legislation should be decided in referendum so that the peoples voice can be truly heard? And if not, would you be the sole arbiter of what is left to the government and what is put to referendum?
I fully understand your criticism and it is one I have herd many times (usually by people who do not agree with the government’s decision on a particular issue) but as a constructive criticism it falls down at the very first hurdle.

To paraphrase Churchill ‘it may not be perfect but is the best damned thing we’ve got’

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12 Sep 2012 - 12:39 PM

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Focus_Man
Focus_Man  4481 forum posts United Kingdom631 Constructive Critique Points
12 Sep 2012 - 12:56 PM


Quote: The fact that I voted in the last referendum, and almost 60% of people eligible didn't (that would be 'most' people') would seem to counter your point and support mine.

The latest opinion polls show 56% of the electorate want a referendum, As they say 'nuff said'. Now I know OPs are not the b-all and end- all so don't come back with that one, but it is the ebst information available.

Focus_Man
Focus_Man  4481 forum posts United Kingdom631 Constructive Critique Points
12 Sep 2012 - 1:08 PM


Quote: So what you are saying is that every piece of legislation should be decided in referendum so that the peoples voice can be truly heard? And if not, would you be the sole arbiter of what is left to the government and what is put to referendum?

Nothing so complicated all I am saying is we should have a referendum on our continued membership of the EU. This is being called for by 56% of the electorate based on latest OPs. Remember the KISS principle?

I know some think the electorate is stupid and I guess you were included in that by Triumphv! - that is insulting to the educated and astute members of society. The electorate should be able to have a referendum on such important matters when we are presently run by Brussells rather than by our own government however inept they may be, or whatever persuasion.

monstersnowman
12 Sep 2012 - 1:46 PM


Quote: Represent our interests - take decisions for us .... Can they not be the same thing ???


otherwise we may as well just employ a civil servant and hold referenda on every single subject.

No they cannot be the same thing. MPs can and often do make their decisions with their own future in mind (EU has many sinecures for failed politicians) whether it be personal or following party lines to gain promotion.



They absolutely can be the same thing as much as they can be ... an MP is there to represent everyone, not just those who voted for them so they always have to 'make decisions' and do things that some would not agree with. Even their own voters/supporters will have different needs, beliefs and interest so it would be an impossibility to represent all interests, and so decisions have to be made - whose interests would you suggest they represent if almost every member of the public has their own interests, agenda and needs.

mikehit
mikehit  56682 forum posts United Kingdom11 Constructive Critique Points
12 Sep 2012 - 1:54 PM

Tell you what, we will keep running opinion polls until we get one that shows only 47% want a referendum and we will say it is not necessary.

OPs are so open to the winds of emotion that they are hardly reliable: who did they ask, when did they ask, what questions did they ask, what was the aim of the poll? With all those variables, 56% is hardly a ringing endorsement of a referendum.
I would hesitate to say that the electorate as a body is stupid, but their capacity to understand the pros and cons of something like the EU is limited and most (like you) will have already made their mind up: even the 'educated and astute' can show little capacity for debate on some topics. Your phrase 'we are run by Brussels' shows either the lack of understanding or the lazy shorthand that polarises opinion and neither are helpful.

Carabosse
Carabosse e2 Member 1139544 forum postsCarabosse vcard England269 Constructive Critique Points
12 Sep 2012 - 2:01 PM

Switzerland, which many see as being a well-run country, has referendums on all sorts of things on a regular basis.

It is no big deal there. Smile

mikehit
mikehit  56682 forum posts United Kingdom11 Constructive Critique Points
12 Sep 2012 - 2:21 PM

And in the 80s they voted not to have as many referendums because they got tired of them. And have only recently voted not to have more referendums on international matters

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/swiss-voters-say-no-yet-more-referendums

Carabosse
Carabosse e2 Member 1139544 forum postsCarabosse vcard England269 Constructive Critique Points
12 Sep 2012 - 2:35 PM

They only said no to more referendums than they had.

Don't blame them - it was probably getting a bit OTT. Wink

Focus_Man
Focus_Man  4481 forum posts United Kingdom631 Constructive Critique Points
12 Sep 2012 - 3:56 PM


Quote: Tell you what, we will keep running opinion polls until we get one that shows only 47% want a referendum and we will say it is not necessary. .

Well that says it all!!! That is just how the EU operates - if you do not agree with us, have another vote until you do.

That is JUST why we need a referendum to see what the electorate - the most important part of a democracy - really wants. No more vote until you agree or in your case until less than 50% do not want a referendum - what the hell is everybody so scared of?

This is NOT a demand to leave the EU it is for a referendum. One thing MPs are scared of (apart from their increased expenses 26% up this year!! being made public once again) is they know full well that they are all out of step with their voters and if the vote goes for leaving - all their perceived sinecures will be lost.

Nobody is asking for referendum after referenda, this is just too important to let go the way of the members of Westminster.

Last Modified By Focus_Man at 12 Sep 2012 - 3:57 PM
mikehit
mikehit  56682 forum posts United Kingdom11 Constructive Critique Points
12 Sep 2012 - 4:01 PM


Quote: Nobody is asking for referendum after referenda,

Not directly. You are wanting a referendum on something you feel strongly about, so why not have one on things other people feel equally strongly about: capital punishment, GM foods, animal experimentation, IVF, free higher education, same-sex marriages, foreign policy etc etc

Last Modified By mikehit at 12 Sep 2012 - 4:02 PM
Carabosse
Carabosse e2 Member 1139544 forum postsCarabosse vcard England269 Constructive Critique Points
12 Sep 2012 - 4:44 PM

We had a referendum on whther we wanted to stay in the EU (or was it the Common Market then?) in 1975.

So that set a precedent for a referendum on the issue.

There are no precedents for referendums on the other issues mentioned.

mikehit
mikehit  56682 forum posts United Kingdom11 Constructive Critique Points
12 Sep 2012 - 5:14 PM

We did have a referendum and it was to stay in. Do we keep having referendums until we get a different answer that some people prefer?
I understand the logic behind the reasoning but where do you stop? Suppose we have a referendum and vote to come out of the EU, and in 10 years time there is a clamour for 'the EU has changed, let's have a referendum to go back in'. I bet many people shouting for a referendum now will suddenly be saying 'No, we don't need that because we voted 10 years ago and chose to come out. The people have spoken'.

Carabosse
Carabosse e2 Member 1139544 forum postsCarabosse vcard England269 Constructive Critique Points
12 Sep 2012 - 5:17 PM


Quote: Do we keep having referendums until we get a different answer that some people prefer?

No, but once every 37 years seems reasonable.

I'll bet if the Scottish devolution referendum turns out as a 'No' there will be pressure for another one a lot sooner than 37 years. Wink


Quote: Suppose we have a referendum and vote to come out of the EU, and in 10 years time there is a clamour for 'the EU has changed

I suspect the EU will no longer exist by then. Not in its present form anyway......... and not unless the budgets of all its members are merged and centrally controlled.

Last Modified By Carabosse at 12 Sep 2012 - 5:18 PM
Focus_Man
Focus_Man  4481 forum posts United Kingdom631 Constructive Critique Points
12 Sep 2012 - 5:47 PM


Quote: Nobody is asking for referendum after referenda,
Not directly. You are wanting a referendum on something you feel strongly about, so why not have one on things other people feel equally strongly about: capital punishment, GM foods, animal experimentation, IVF, free higher education, same-sex marriages, foreign policy etc etc

I agree with you entirely and if you remember this government stated clearly, that if 100,000 names were to be added to a petition, a referendum could follow. with the EU, more than 100,000 were sent but this didn't even get to the discussion stage. cameron vetoed it IS THAT DEMOCRACY MY FRIEND?

Last Modified By Focus_Man at 12 Sep 2012 - 5:51 PM
Focus_Man
Focus_Man  4481 forum posts United Kingdom631 Constructive Critique Points
12 Sep 2012 - 5:51 PM


Quote: We did have a referendum and it was to stay in. Do we keep having referendums until we get a different answer that some people prefer?
I understand the logic behind the reasoning but where do you stop? Suppose we have a referendum and vote to come out of the EU, and in 10 years time there is a clamour for 'the EU has changed, let's have a referendum to go back in'. I bet many people shouting for a referendum now will suddenly be saying 'No, we don't need that because we voted 10 years ago and chose to come out. The people have spoken'.

I doubt it, unless the motives had changed just like the common market. What we have now with the EU running and controlling our law making, immigration, education and health care, this bears no relation to the original whatever.

So yes if the intention and the practice were different, then a referendum should follow. We cannot have a trade group set up then behind our backs some foreign country starts telling us what we can and must do which bears no aprt of the agreement.

Compare Ted Heath's common market with what we have now "game set and match" end of arguement

Last Modified By Focus_Man at 12 Sep 2012 - 5:52 PM

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