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Well said Boris

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triumphv8
triumphv8  7450 forum posts United Kingdom
13 Sep 2012 - 8:16 PM

Off you go, seems that I am already in the company of well educated and astute people - spotted by chance in a BBC news article :-


Quote: “The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter.”

Winston Churchill

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13 Sep 2012 - 8:16 PM

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monstersnowman
13 Sep 2012 - 11:08 PM

Love it !! Never a truer word spoken.

gcarth
gcarth e2 Member 102293 forum postsgcarth vcard United Kingdom1 Constructive Critique Points
14 Sep 2012 - 6:48 PM


Quote: Off you go, seems that I am already in the company of well educated and astute people - spotted by chance in a BBC news article :-

“The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter.”

Winston Churchill

That's a bit rich coming from Churchill. He and his fat cat elite pals prevented ordinary voters from decent education and experiencing real democracy - and they still are preventing real democracy. When was Churchill ever democratic? ...Patronising, fat little fool.

monstersnowman
14 Sep 2012 - 10:45 PM

Maybe he was all you said .. but the scentiment is very true.

My children's opinion, whilst going to a moderate high school, is that the main thing preventing their chances of getting a proper education is some of the other children's ability to withstand any attempts to educate them and those children's concerted efforts to damage the education of those around them who are making an effort, by disruption, disorder, violence and vandalism, all of which prevents teachers teaching on a physical and financial level. You can lead a horse to water ...

keith selmes
14 Sep 2012 - 10:59 PM


Quote: the scentiment is very true.

you're referring to the great unwashed here ?

mikehit
mikehit  56740 forum posts United Kingdom11 Constructive Critique Points
17 Sep 2012 - 12:05 PM


Quote: - and they still are preventing real democracy.

And your solution...?


Quote: Patronising, fat little fool.

In my experience 'patronising' is a word wheeled out when someone makes a truthful comment others would rather not hear.

gcarth
gcarth e2 Member 102293 forum postsgcarth vcard United Kingdom1 Constructive Critique Points
17 Sep 2012 - 1:36 PM


Quote: In my experience 'patronising' is a word wheeled out when someone makes a truthful comment others would rather not hear.

You may be right...who knows? On reflection, I don't know why I used the word 'patronising' to describe Churchill - I think he simply thought he was superior and did not put on much pretence of kindness.
He was downright obnoxious in his appraisal of Attlee (a far greater and more decent man in my opinion) when he tried to belittle Attlee as being a very modest man with much to be modest about.
However, I do accept that just maybe Churchill served a valuable purpose in the WW2 because he was at least aware of the Nazi threat before many others were and (according to what I've read) helped prepare us for defending our nation from Hitler's onslaught. The trouble is, he gave the orders for the slaughter of countless thousands of German citizens in bombing raids which surely weren't even needed to finish the war.

Quote:
And your solution...?

Oh, don't let's go through all that again! Anyone with an ounce of intelligence can see that this government, Thatcher's government and those of the previous Tory 'New Labour' governments have made no attempt whatsoever to address the real problems of the age - redistributing wealth fairly, paying a decent minimum wage, taxing the super-rich, investing heavily in renewable energy, providing more fully rounded education, etc. etc.
I'm sick and tired of repeating these solutions - solutions that are only made impossible because few politicians worth their salt are protesting and those that do are ignored by the big business and Government controlled media - which includes the BBC. Sad

mikehit
mikehit  56740 forum posts United Kingdom11 Constructive Critique Points
17 Sep 2012 - 1:47 PM

Churchill was certainly an opinionated SOB but he did have a knack for accurate, pithy phrases. With someone like that there is sometimes a tendency to 'shoot the messenger...'


Quote: Oh, don't let's go through all that again!

Wink

thewilliam
17 Sep 2012 - 2:02 PM


Quote: “The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter.”

Winston ChurchillThat's a bit rich coming from Churchill. He and his fat cat elite pals prevented ordinary voters from decent education and experiencing real democracy - and they still are preventing real democracy. When was Churchill ever democratic? ...Patronising, fat little fool.

When I started secondary school, some 50 years ago, the brightest of us went to grammar schools where the quality of education was second to none. Best of all, we were educated in the true sense of the word and not just trained like monkeys to pass the tests. Then, the poorest could get a university education entirely at public expense if they passed A levels with decent grades.

It was the socialists that ended the selection by ability because they considered it "divisive" so that only the rich now have access to proper education.

Last Modified By thewilliam at 17 Sep 2012 - 2:04 PM
mikehit
mikehit  56740 forum posts United Kingdom11 Constructive Critique Points
17 Sep 2012 - 2:36 PM

I agree - I benefited from that policy and I could never have afforded to go to University without it. All the stuff I have read says that social mobility was highest under the much-loathed Thatcher and plummeted after Labour took power in the late 90s. Of course, socialists will avoid this by saying that 'New Labour was not really socialist' but no-one will coinvince me that Gordon Brown was anything other than an unreconstructed 1970s socialist.
I am far from a Thatcher apologist but his reflex 'all the nations ills are the fault of Thatcher' is actually quite sad and in some way supports Churchill's surmise.

gcarth
gcarth e2 Member 102293 forum postsgcarth vcard United Kingdom1 Constructive Critique Points
17 Sep 2012 - 8:16 PM


Quote: All the stuff I have read says that social mobility was highest under the much-loathed Thatcher and plummeted after Labour took power in the late 90s. Of course, socialists will avoid this by saying that 'New Labour was not really socialist' but no-one will coinvince me that Gordon Brown was anything other than an unreconstructed 1970s socialist.

You've probably got your info from the Torygraph (Telegraph) but the truth is, we know much less about what has happened to social mobility because the key study that would have helped shed light on this was cancelled by Margaret Thatcher in 1980. Apparently, we won't get "definitive evidence" of what really happened to mobility in the Labour years until 2020, when the real "Blair babe" generation enters adulthood.

Quote: but no-one will coinvince me that Gordon Brown was anything other than an unreconstructed 1970s socialist.

You see, this is the problem - we are fed with so much nonsense from the media that many of us, even supposedly intelligent ones among us, actually think that Gordon Brown was a socialist. He might have made token gestures toward socialism but basically he was a Blairite and was therefore more in sympathy with the right wing than the socialist left. I mean how can you say the man is a socialist - the man who permitted or encouraged the loosening of controls on Banks and who fully backed Mandelson and his "There is nothing to be ashamed of in being filthy rich".
So I repeat my opinion that the Tory policy is always to blame and always will be to blame because Toryism is a dead dinosaur and by definition is all about conserving traditional values and staying in the past. Life is all about change - nothing can be - or is meant to be immutable.
Of course, the old Labour Party follows close behind in it's largely obsolescent ideology - only the Green Party is keeping up with the times...
In our delusion of "democracy", we fail to see the real problem - the bigger picture behind crumbling Britain: It's all down to greed and propaganda and our refusal to share our wealth and indeed, our good will. Sad

mikehit
mikehit  56740 forum posts United Kingdom11 Constructive Critique Points
17 Sep 2012 - 10:06 PM


Quote: I mean how can you say the man is a socialist - the man who permitted or encouraged the loosening of controls on Banks and who fully backed Mandelson and his "There is nothing to be ashamed of in being filthy rich".

I was not aware that 'socialism' was defined by banking rules. He relaxed the rules to bring more money through the City so he could tax them more, bring more revenue into the exchequer and carry on his funding of the public sector to unsustainable levels.


Quote: our refusal to share our wealth

Yes, that is at the heart of the problem. But in this modern world where capital can move so easily and people can relocate just as easily I am not sure that the 'old solutions' will work anymore. I am sure you remember the supertax of the 1970s where tax revenue acutally decreased because people resented paying at that level. There was a very polarised debate on the radio recently exemplified by two points: 'tax them high because they are rich and should pay their way' versus 'if you tax too highly all they do is move out so a lower percentage of a lot is better than 100% of nothing'.

collywobles
18 Sep 2012 - 2:41 PM


Quote: Oh, don't let's go through all that again! Anyone with an ounce of intelligence can see that this government, Thatcher's government and those of the previous Tory 'New Labour' governments have made no attempt whatsoever to address the real problems of the age - redistributing wealth fairly, paying a decent minimum wage, taxing the super-rich, investing heavily in renewable energy, providing more fully rounded education, etc. etc.

You are so right. The gap between the rich and poor is increasing every year and has been since WW!!. It is shameful that a so called democratic and caring society should allow this. I am not a tax the rich anarchist per say, but I do believe everyone should pay their fair share of taxes. and not be allowed any offshore get outs.... In saying that - I also do not believe we should paying people dole money for those who DO NOT want to work. At worst people on the dole who cannot/wil not get a job should help in a social manner by cleaning schools/ hospitals/ gardening, school dinners etc in return for their benefits.

Carabosse
Carabosse e2 Member 1139544 forum postsCarabosse vcard England269 Constructive Critique Points
18 Sep 2012 - 3:07 PM

Politicians can make very little difference to economic issues - those are, broadly speaking, directed by the unelected.

They can however decide how much society should hand out by way of social security benefits and the like. I think it used to be something like 'just enough to stop riots in the streets'. But now it must cover essentials such as a plasma TV not less than 42" in size and at least one family holiday a year in the Costa del Chav! Wink

Focus_Man
Focus_Man  4481 forum posts United Kingdom631 Constructive Critique Points
18 Sep 2012 - 3:25 PM

You seem to knock the Tories a lot, but why should educated movers have to share their wealth with those who wish to sit on their backsides and take money from the benefit system? A career structure starting under Mr 'Red Communist', 'that lady is a bigot' Brown, from job seekers through to the top of the scale with full invalidity should not be allowed unless those in receipt of tax-payers money are genuinely unable to work due to some invalidity. (Look at or para-athletes and see what some are able to do.)

The problem with Socialists, and Lady MargaretThatcher said is correctly is "They are really good at spending other peoples money." That is it in a nutshell.

Last Modified By Focus_Man at 18 Sep 2012 - 3:26 PM

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