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Well said Boris

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Carabosse
Carabosse e2 Member 1139430 forum postsCarabosse vcard England269 Constructive Critique Points
18 Sep 2012 - 3:46 PM


Quote: They are really good at spending other peoples money

The rejoinder to that is always: "capitalists are good at earning other people's money".

Or - brought up to date - shifting (other people's) money around. Grin

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18 Sep 2012 - 3:46 PM

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hobbs
hobbs  101222 forum posts United Kingdom
18 Sep 2012 - 3:48 PM

How about a bit of social responsibility from all of society, it's not about politics, its about everyone paying their fair share. Its about those lucky to be able to work getting jobs and paying into the system helping those who are unlucky and genuinely unable to. All it takes is one second for your luck to change and suddenly due to no fault of your own to find yourself dependant on others. Unfortunatly large parts of society both those with and those without are far to selfish, we as a nation are far to money orientated thinking that more of it will make our lives better instead of concentrating on the here and now and how to make things better with what we have.

Focus_Man
Focus_Man  4481 forum posts United Kingdom631 Constructive Critique Points
18 Sep 2012 - 4:54 PM


Quote: How about a bit of social responsibility from all of society, it's not about politics, its about everyone paying their fair share. Its about those lucky to be able to work getting jobs and paying into the system helping those who are unlucky and genuinely unable to. .

I am sure we all agree with that, the problem currently and maybe for a long time past, is that those who go out to work for others or in some cases create jobs by starting their own businesses,(I did that and I do not consider myself lucky enough as you say, it was a lot of effort and hard work) is that we seem to also pay for the idle and the feckless. It is always socialists who set aside tax-payers money to keep them, as somebody said earlier, with 40" TVs, Sky subscriptions and in some cases, jobs in the black economy.

Are you saying therefore that we should only pay those who fall on hard times, temporarily, until they find new jobs or do you think we should also pay for the loafers, the idle and scivers? I ask because you made no mention of those as if they don't in fact exist.

Last Modified By Focus_Man at 18 Sep 2012 - 4:55 PM
hobbs
hobbs  101222 forum posts United Kingdom
18 Sep 2012 - 5:07 PM

What you regard as lucky and what I regard as are different, I believe that anyone who is able to work is lucky as they have the ability to be able to support themselves.


Quote: Are you saying therefore that we should only pay those who fall on hard times, temporarily, until they find new jobs or do you think we should also pay for the loafers, the idle and scivers? I ask because you made no mention of those as if they don't in fact exist.

I did make mention in saying those able to work, I think you might of misunderstood this to mean those who want to work.

Focus_Man
Focus_Man  4481 forum posts United Kingdom631 Constructive Critique Points
18 Sep 2012 - 5:21 PM


Quote: What you regard as lucky and what I regard as are different, I believe that anyone who is able to work is lucky as they have the ability to be able to support themselves.

I call that normal. It is surely normal in this life to provide for your family by working. Nothing lucky about that, surely ones duty to do the normal thing. Luck has nothing to do with it.

hobbs
hobbs  101222 forum posts United Kingdom
18 Sep 2012 - 5:32 PM


Quote: I call that normal. It is surely normal in this life to provide for your family by working. Nothing lucky about that, surely ones duty to do the normal thing. Luck has nothing to do with it.


To you yes, but if you look at it from someones point of view who is genuinely not able to work they might see it as being lucky.

keith selmes
18 Sep 2012 - 6:16 PM


Quote: The problem with Socialists, and Lady MargaretThatcher said is correctly is "They are really good at spending other peoples money."

In that case we should all vote socialist, if there is such a thing now. What we really do need is a governemnt that is good at spending our money, as compared to the ones we normally get.

collywobles
18 Sep 2012 - 6:52 PM


Quote: why should educated movers have to share their wealth with those who wish to sit on their backsides and take money from the benefit system

All they should do is to pay their fair share, from my point of view 40/50% tax of anyones income is fair as an income tax, however its the off shore accounts and tax avoidance money where they should also pay the tax.

As for people on benefits certainly there are many that do take advantage but there are also many through no fault of their own and cannot find work that do need help

A recent Panorame program on some sink estate up north was a real eye opener and many on that program certainly lost any sympathy I might have had with them.

gcarth
gcarth e2 Member 102289 forum postsgcarth vcard United Kingdom1 Constructive Critique Points
18 Sep 2012 - 7:43 PM


Quote: A recent Panorame program on some sink estate up north was a real eye opener and many on that program certainly lost any sympathy I might have had with them.

Yes, Colin: I think the programme seemed to give too much coverage and publicity to the layabouts and not enough to the more decent types who had to put up with these terrible people.
I would have been happy with focusing on the "subcultural" types if the programme had explained how we can help them and stop their terrible behaviour but there was very little enlightenment on what is to be done with them. I'm sure at least a fair number of the more loutish characters could be helped if maybe they had more playing fields, proper places to use skate boards, gyms or whatever.
I think the problem is that these areas have been allowed to "fester" for years and so it's next to impossible to lift the standard of behaviour of some of the characters there.
The sad thing is that the more extreme and troublesome characters grab the headlines and the majority are tarred with the same brush - and they may have genuine concerns of poverty and poor environmental issues.
I did read that a number of people on the estate portrayed in the Panorama programme were outraged and said it gave an exaggerated impression of the issues there. I don't know - I've never been.

gcarth
gcarth e2 Member 102289 forum postsgcarth vcard United Kingdom1 Constructive Critique Points
18 Sep 2012 - 8:02 PM

Of course, there are plenty of bad apples across the whole societal spectrum, but I would like to mention a few facts and figures to those of you who support the Tory onslaught on the poorer members in society: Tax fraud costs the country 5 times the cost of benefits fraud and yet there are 56 times more prosecutions for benefit fraud than tax fraud.
Obviously it is wrong to commit fraud, whoever you are, but I think the above facts help to put into perspective how the "ruling elite" through the media divert attention from middle and upper class fraud by focusing on the poor and "underclass" cheats.
However, I sympathise with small business men and women who have usually "worked their butts off" and struggle to keep their heads above water because successive governments have not encouraged enterprise - they only seem interested in the "big boys" - you know the banks and those super-rich characters who donate to political parties and use their grubby media pals to swing things their way. Sad

Carabosse
Carabosse e2 Member 1139430 forum postsCarabosse vcard England269 Constructive Critique Points
18 Sep 2012 - 8:40 PM


Quote: Tax fraud costs the country 5 times the cost of benefits fraud and yet there are 56 times more prosecutions for benefit fraud than tax fraud

It is a psychological/presentational issue as much as anything.

Although, in principle fraud is fraud, social security fraud is seen as trying to obtain other people's money. Whereas tax fraud is seen as trying to hang on to your own money.

mikehit
mikehit  56435 forum posts United Kingdom9 Constructive Critique Points
18 Sep 2012 - 9:06 PM

The other thing to bear in mind is that benefit fraud is easier to prove - with income tax fraud there are many cases that are borderline into tax evasion (which is totally legal).
You then have two competing issues where benefit fraud is easier so the 'authorities' concentrate on it (supported by pressure from politicians, I am sure) and the practical side where because benefit fraud is easier to prosecute so it is more likely to end up in court. And I am sure that the relative prevalence of those tow aspects is a whole new discussion.

CaptivePhotons
CaptivePhotons e2 Member 111546 forum postsCaptivePhotons vcard England2 Constructive Critique Points
18 Sep 2012 - 9:17 PM


Quote: tax evasion (which is totally legal).

Woohooo Grin

Or did you mean Tax avoidance? Tongue

redhed17
redhed17  8658 forum posts England
18 Sep 2012 - 9:35 PM

The poor will always be targeted for any wrongdoing, nevermind how small in comparison to the rich, because they don't have the means to represent or protect themselves. Sad Plus, the Government has more control of poor peoples lives, be that through the benefits they may claim, any redustion in services, or the effect of any changes to Taxes has on them.

Also, especially with this Government, the rich look after themselves. You can bet if the political parties were funded by the man in the street, and not big business, more Tax loop holes would be closed, and many more who were committing major Fraud would be prosecuted.

That is not to say that rich should only be targeted, anyone who commits a crime should be prosecuted. It seems a better use of resources to target 100s defrauding £M's possibly£B's than 1000s defrauding £K's imho. You hear a lot of benefit cheats in the papers, but Asil Nadir aside, and how long has he taken to come to trial, how many rich people or business' do you hear of getting caught? I doubt they are all Law abiding citizens.

And as for the pittance some huge companies pay in Tax, in relation to how much they earn, it is laughable, and if they were pursued, the country as a whole may not have to endure cuts as deep as we all are having to.

Sadly, never happen though. Sad

mikehit
mikehit  56435 forum posts United Kingdom9 Constructive Critique Points
18 Sep 2012 - 10:04 PM


Quote: tax evasion (which is totally legal).

Woohooo Grin

Or did you mean Tax avoidance? Tongue

D'oh. Of course I did *emarassed*

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