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kodachrome
17 Dec 2012 - 2:28 PM

On an American 'shooting' site forum the posts are flowing in by the hundred, and most are quoting the 2nd ammendment. Apparently its not set in stone and can be modified by the Federal Government.

A lot of American shooters say owning a gun is for their protection both locally and in case of invasion [goodness knows by who, perhaps its those nasty North K----S] they have a huge Militia ready to fight like the Minute men of the 17 hundreds. For crying out loud, what do they think their armed forces and National Guard are for.

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Umberto_Vanni
Umberto_Vanni e2 Member 9349 forum postsUmberto_Vanni vcard Scotland
17 Dec 2012 - 2:38 PM


Quote: . The fact that many of the gun lobby are also fundi right wing Christians who think we are nearing the second coming and end times makes it even scarier.

Gives a bad name to us regular Christians Wink

I agree with you. The NRA are lunatics but as Franken says, it's the psyche of the people that is the problem, not the guns. A gun will never pick itself up and fire. Someone has to make the concious decision to do that. If people really want guns to use in this despicable, aggressive way then they can get them.

You have to educate people, perhaps as young as school age, that the use of violence in any form is wrong and as a society we have to try to eradicate child abuse and repair broken families. We don't seem to be doing enough at the moment or at worse we are simply ignoring and stoking situations that can produce violent people in the future.

mikehit
mikehit  46191 forum posts United Kingdom9 Constructive Critique Points
17 Dec 2012 - 3:02 PM


Quote: . ...as Franken says, it's the psyche of the people that is the problem, not the guns. A gun will never pick itself up and fire. Someone has to make the concious decision to do that. If people really want guns to use in this despicable, aggressive way then they can get them.

Which is an argument against gun laws in this country.
The 'gun does not fire itself' argument is a total red herring - we control access to cars, pornography, cigarettes, alcohol and dreugs for one reason: to limit access to those we think are responsible to have access. And if they are particularly dangerous (like cars) we permit access by license and for those that are destructive (like drugs) we make them illegal.
The argument about guns would have far reaching consequences to our lives if we followed the same (to me ridiculous) logic.

Decap
Decap  1 United Kingdom
17 Dec 2012 - 3:14 PM

I am an American who was tought by my father how to shoot at the age of 8. He was a Marine who not only tought me how to use a gun, but also the responsibility of owning a firearm. After serving a few terms in Iraq and seeing the results of people shooting eachother, I decided that I would not have any guns at home. Don't get me wrong, I do enjoy shooting, but only at a gun range. I am not one who wants the right to bear arms at all costs, but am glad to have the right to own one. the thinking that when everyone has a gun then the crime rate will decline is in my eyes a bunch of BS. It just can't work that way. The same way as increasing the laws for gun ownership. If a criminal wants one, he will find a way to get one. It just makes things harder for normal people. to have one. It is the same with cars, how many people got killed from drunk drivers? Should we ban cars? Or make the laws so strict that only the privelaged can have one? I know a lot of idiots who should not be allowed to drive a car, but they can legally. Since the tragedy happened i have seen a lot of calls for more gun control laws everything from stopping ammo sales on the internet to banning the specific gun he used, and calls for mental health background checks.

The thing is not one of these measures would have stopped what happened!!
1) The shooter tried to buy a gun earlier that week, and was not allowed to. So he stole one from his mother who he then killed. The background checks and laws currently in place WORKED. This was a person who had no business owning a gun, and he wasn't allowed to. there is no loophole to close there.

2) To the best of my knowledge the ammo was not purchased over the internet

3) The shooter did not select a specific model of weapon based on it's killing ability, he took the only gun available to him I'm sure that if his mother had just owned a revolver the results would have been just as tragic.

So since none of the "meaningful actions" that people are throwing out there would have prevented this i can only assume those calling for it are looking to use this tragedy to push an agenda they already have.

What can we do about it??

TURN OFF THE NEWS.......

This is Morgan Freeman's brilliant take on what happened :

"You want to know why. This may sound cynical, but here's why.

It's because of the way the media reports it. Flip on the news and watch how we treat the Batman theater shooter and the Oregon mall shooter like celebrities. Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris are household names, but do you know the name of a single *victim* of Columbine? Disturbed people who would otherwise just off themselves in their basements see the news and want to top it by doing something worse, and going out in a memorable way. Why a grade school? Why children? Because he'll be remembered as a horrible monster, instead of a sad nobody.

CNN's article says that if the body count "holds up", this will rank as the second deadliest shooting behind Virginia Tech, as if statistics somehow make one shooting worse than another. Then they post a video interview of third-graders for all the details of what they saw and heard while the shootings were happening. Fox News has plastered the killer's face on all their reports for hours. Any articles or news stories yet that focus on the victims and ignore the killer's identity? None that I've seen yet. Because they don't sell. So congratulations, sensationalist media, you've just lit the fire for someone to top this and knock off a day care center or a maternity ward next.

You can help by forgetting you ever read this man's name, and remembering the name of at least one victim. You can help by donating to mental health research instead of pointing to gun control as the problem. You can help by turning off the news."

As long as most programs on tv glorify violence, things will not get better soon.

just my 2ct...

Umberto_Vanni
Umberto_Vanni e2 Member 9349 forum postsUmberto_Vanni vcard Scotland
17 Dec 2012 - 3:28 PM


Quote: You can help by forgetting you ever read this man's name [/qote]

Very true. The media makes "anti-celebrities" out of these maniacs.

[quote] and remembering the name of at least one victim. You can help by donating to mental health research instead of pointing to gun control as the problem. You can help by turning off the news.

Agreed. We as a society are to blame for much of the problems in the world today. Role models seem to be celebrities who have dubious moral standards.


Quote: As long as most programs on tv glorify violence, things will not get better soon.

Good point.

LVanDhal
LVanDhal  1126 forum posts United Kingdom1 Constructive Critique Points
17 Dec 2012 - 3:33 PM


Quote:

The thing is not one of these measures would have stopped what happened!!
1) The shooter tried to buy a gun earlier that week, and was not allowed to. So he stole one from his mother who he then killed. The background checks and laws currently in place WORKED. This was a person who had no business owning a gun, and he wasn't allowed to. there is no loophole to close there.

2) To the best of my knowledge the ammo was not purchased over the internet

3) The shooter did not select a specific model of weapon based on it's killing ability, he took the only gun available to him I'm sure that if his mother had just owned a revolver the results would have been just as tragic

You can help by forgetting you ever read this man's name, and remembering the name of at least one victim. You can help by donating to mental health research instead of pointing to gun control as the problem. You can help by turning off the news."

As long as most programs on tv glorify violence, things will not get better soon.

just my 2ct...

Very well said. ( I only quoted part of this post by decap but I agree wholly with the views expressed in the entire post.)

kodachrome
17 Dec 2012 - 4:48 PM

I have attended gun clubs in the USA [New England area] and they were run on strict safety rules much the same as here in the UK.
The NRA needs to adopt some common sense about gun ownership and more importantly the access to guns by unauthorized people. Surely its a basic responsibility for parents/guardians not to leave guns lying around for their kids to find and play with.

Its not only TV but the Violent Video games where shooting is the main action in the game must make some impression on a youngster. He [not so much she] will want to emulate some of this, its how kids are.

strawman
strawman  1022004 forum posts United Kingdom16 Constructive Critique Points
17 Dec 2012 - 5:02 PM

A quick question, if attitudes to gun ownership are not important, why is it that shootings per head of population are higher in the USA? Should we start by understanding that then move on to a solution for the USA. To me there have been a few atrocities like this through the world , Dunblane etc, but the hit rate looks far higher in the USA so if we could improve it there could we learn anything for the rest of the world.

I hear people say that tougher gun laws would not stop these situations, but I also look at the rate of gun crime per capita and it says the USA has a special problem.

Despite all that you hear of tales of heroic sacrifice. The teacher that hid the kids and was shot by the gunman. the whole thing is moving and so sad.

LVanDhal
LVanDhal  1126 forum posts United Kingdom1 Constructive Critique Points
17 Dec 2012 - 5:15 PM

Anonymous have hacked the Westboro Baptists Hate group who planned to picket the Sandy hook funerals.
The personal details of the Phelps family have been published on the internet, along with the take over by cosmotheGod of Phelps-Roper's twiiter account.
A petition online to have this Hate group recognized officially as a Hate group has started.
As I write this the radio has announced that the funerals of Noah ,aged just six years old ,and Jack aged just six years old are about to begin.
Rest in Peace little ones.

thewilliam
17 Dec 2012 - 5:44 PM


Quote: A quick question, if attitudes to gun ownership are not important, why is it that shootings per head of population are higher in the USA?

The Americans seem to make a habit of shooting first and then thinking it through. In the first Gulf War, more Brits were killed by "friendly fire" than by the enemy.

Back in cold war days, there was a saying:- When the Ruskies fire, we get our heads down. When we fire, the Ruskies get their heads down. But when the Americans open fire, we all need to keep our heads down!

collywobles
17 Dec 2012 - 5:44 PM


Quote: Back in the 1950s and 60s, when I was a younsgster and the death penalty could be imposed, murders were uncommon

The death penalty never prevented murders.

Paul Morgan
Paul Morgan e2 Member 1314978 forum postsPaul Morgan vcard England6 Constructive Critique Points
17 Dec 2012 - 5:50 PM


Quote: I hear people say that tougher gun laws would not stop these situations, but I also look at the rate of gun crime per capita and it says the USA has a special problem

A lot of these high kill rate shootings are done by those that don`t own guns, they take and use somebody else's, often the parents.

There whole gun culture needs to change in a big way.

StrayCat
StrayCat  1014504 forum posts Canada2 Constructive Critique Points
17 Dec 2012 - 8:55 PM

The medical examiner has just released info that most of the victims had been shot at least twice, many at very close range, with bullets designed to do maximum internal damage.

Why wouldn't the US put a ban on automatic and semi-automatic weapons, and certain types of ammunition? Maybe there would have been more survivors. There was a ban in the US on AR-15 type weapons from 1994-2004, but congress was influenced by the gun lobby groups, and it wasn't renewed. Why did the killer's mother have an AR-15, and automatic pistols in her possession. All of the victims were killed with the rifle.

strawman
strawman  1022004 forum posts United Kingdom16 Constructive Critique Points
17 Dec 2012 - 11:01 PM

I happen to wonder how much is the social acceptance of violence. I know its an old fashioned view I have, but is it that if the media (lets think films and TV series) and popular culture like video games all feature shooting do you become de-sensitised to gun violence and does it make it acceptable somehow? But then I think most of Europe is exposed to the same media. Do we view it differently?

Its like in the UK I look at binge drinking and I look at the way people boast about it etc, and think yup that is why we suffer from it, we big it up in popular culture so its OK. Is gun crime in america subject to a similar thing?

And Denny makes a good point, should the sale of certain guns/ammo be banned?

StrayCat
StrayCat  1014504 forum posts Canada2 Constructive Critique Points
17 Dec 2012 - 11:17 PM

There is just something extremely barbaric about killing little defenseless children in cold blood. The killer was cowardly from every angle, even the taking of his own life. I believe we are going to be losing many of our freedoms in the near future in order to be able to defend against totally defective mental cases. We seem to be terrorised as much by our own citizens as by confirmed international terrorists. In some cases, we're just going to have to let our justice system have some way to deal with certain crimes before they happen.

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