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What can be Done to Stop this

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brian1208
brian1208 e2 Member 1110152 forum postsbrian1208 vcard United Kingdom12 Constructive Critique Points
19 Dec 2012 - 8:18 AM


Quote: That it's ok to have free gun ownership because it's down to cultural differences.



The title of this thread is "What can be done to stop this", I would suggest that one way of approaching the subject is to look for countries with similar levels of gun ownership but different murder rates using guns to see what is different as this may just give a clue as to where action could / should begin.

Maybe the US situation needs to give a lot more attention to the reasons why these (mainly young people?) carry out these crimes?

As you clearly show, removing guns from the situation doesn't remove the drive to murder

Whenever something such as this, with an high emotional charge, occurs there is a tendency to address the symptoms whilst ignoring the more difficult to address underlying causes of the problem

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19 Dec 2012 - 8:18 AM

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779HOB
779HOB  2998 forum posts United Kingdom
19 Dec 2012 - 8:31 AM


Quote: Whenever something such as this, with an high emotional charge, occurs there is a tendency to address the symptoms whilst ignoring the more difficult to address underlying causes of the problem

I totally agree with you. The root cause of why these people pull the trigger is massively important and maybe impossible to know as they tend to take the cowards route out and turn the gun on themselves. For me though these people have too easier access to the tools that allow them to take out their anger or whatever it is on the innocent. It's not about locking guns up safely like you say the Swiss do. In the States you can walk in off the street and buy an assault rifle and ammo. I am sure we have people in the UK who would commit mass killings but access to the weapons is much harder here and so it doesn't happen, or at least very rarely. It's very complex and I wouldn't claim to have all the facts but my gut tells me they need to control access to buying guns.

lobsterboy
lobsterboy Site Moderator 1014005 forum postslobsterboy vcard United Kingdom13 Constructive Critique Points
19 Dec 2012 - 8:47 AM


Quote: I am sure we have people in the UK who would commit mass killings but access to the weapons is much harder here and so it doesn't happen, or at least very rarely.

I think your right, I think if I had access to assault weapons it wouldn't be very long before Bank station was a total blood bath. Most evenings it is all I can do to resist the temptation to walk down the platform pushing people on to the track...

779HOB
779HOB  2998 forum posts United Kingdom
19 Dec 2012 - 8:59 AM

If you took the UK drinking culture and added the US culture of access to weapons, well, Saturday nights would be even worse!

brian1208
brian1208 e2 Member 1110152 forum postsbrian1208 vcard United Kingdom12 Constructive Critique Points
19 Dec 2012 - 9:57 AM


Quote: my gut tells me they need to control access to buying guns.

mine too and in my view they should ban assault weapons and the like as they are weapons of aggression not defence

brian1208
brian1208 e2 Member 1110152 forum postsbrian1208 vcard United Kingdom12 Constructive Critique Points
19 Dec 2012 - 10:10 AM

I found this interesting paper by the Home Office "Gun crime: the market in and use of illegal firearms" which highlights the fact that even banning the ownershio of weapons won't stop those intent on murder and violence (much like attempting to ban the carrying of knives)


Quote: he UK now has some of the most restrictive laws regarding
firearms to be found anywhere.


Quote: Whilst it is the case that overall recorded gun crime in England and
Wales increased substantially between the mid-1990s and 2001/02 in particular, it has to be
recognised both that many of the firearms used in these crimes are not purpose-built lethal
firearms
and also that the criminal economy and accompanying criminal cultures appear to
have changed substantially.47 In particular, innovations such as the conversion of imitation
firearms and the illegal manufacture of ammunition suggest that the criminal availability of
purpose built lethal firearms and ammunition is significantly constrained


digicammad
digicammad  1121988 forum posts United Kingdom37 Constructive Critique Points
19 Dec 2012 - 10:20 AM

The problem that exists anywhere in the world, for any subject, is that banning something will only stop law abiding people. People intent on breaking the law will do so anyway, be it drink, drugs, motor offences or murder.

The biggest difference between the UK and America is that there are more guns floating around in the USA. Even if the sale of guns was totally banned there is a ready supply for people who want them. In the UK they are much harder to come by because we haven't had the right to bear arms in our constitution. If the USA was to force people to lock their guns away it may have prevented this particular tragedy but I doubt it, I believe he would have found a way to get hold of a gun anyway. What would happen is that the law abiding people would lock away their guns and the criminals would just ignore the law, as normal.

It is therefore a Catch-22. Leave the law as it is and things will steadily get worse, change it and law abiding people become more vulnerable.

If, instead of thinking about changing the law, you look at the root cause as has already been suggested, there are things that can be done. These massacres are not performed by gangs or burglars, they are performed by people with mental health problems. By all means try to get military style rifles out of circulation but any money should be spent on diagnosing and providing help to people with mental health issues. Anything else is just a knee-jerk which will solve nothing.

mikehit
mikehit  46104 forum posts United Kingdom9 Constructive Critique Points
19 Dec 2012 - 10:58 AM


Quote: By all means try to get military style rifles out of circulation but any money should be spent on diagnosing and providing help to people with mental health issues.

But how do you define a mental health issue that warrants intensive treatment? The gunman the other day is reported as being 'borderline' Aspergers (thought that is apparently in doubt) with social issues and you cannot treat everyone in that bracket in the offchance that they may turn psychopathic.
I think this talk of mental health issues is potentially misleading - everyone has a breaking point and for some it is surprisingly low, but that does not mean they are mentally ill in the traditional meaning of the phrase and the only cod-pschology comes after the event.

Carabosse
Carabosse e2 Member 1139385 forum postsCarabosse vcard England269 Constructive Critique Points
19 Dec 2012 - 11:01 AM


Quote: What can be Done to Stop this

Nothing will ever stop it completely although being able to buy a gun as easily as a packet of cornflakes, as in the US, does not help.

A legacy of the 'Wild West'. Giving up their precious guns will not be something Americans do willingly.

collywobles
19 Dec 2012 - 11:02 AM


Quote: my gut tells me they need to control access to buying guns.

The US has a gun culture and with 180 million guns legally owned in the US its almost impossible to control, and I dont believe it ever will be. Thats not a criticism of our friends but a fact of life.


Quote: These massacres are not performed by gangs or burglars, they are performed by people with mental health problems

The people who are driven to do this in general do not have any mental ptoblems that stand out to be treated, in this case and most others the people tend to be just loners and to my knowlege they dont put you in an asylum (figure of speech intended) for being a loner.

Last Modified By collywobles at 19 Dec 2012 - 11:02 AM
brian1208
brian1208 e2 Member 1110152 forum postsbrian1208 vcard United Kingdom12 Constructive Critique Points
19 Dec 2012 - 11:05 AM


Quote: but that does not mean they are mentally ill in the traditional meaning of the phrase

agree, the problem in the States seems to be that
Quote: everyone has a breaking point and for some it is surprisingly low

and when they reach this point the preference for some seems to be that they reach for a firearm rather than seeking help.

This is where I think the efforts of the media, politicians and the like should be focused to find out why this is so and how to change it (is it the macho American ideal I wonder, a "Real Man" doesn't need help, he sorts it out via his penis replacement symbol? )

thewilliam
19 Dec 2012 - 11:10 AM

In some troubled parts of the world, it's quite normal to carry firearms.

One friend lived in South Africa during the tail end of apartheid era and he always carried a pistol at the least. He only used it once in anger and that was to shoot a dog that attacked and bit his daughter.

In certain parts of Israel, even farm tractors have a special mounting for a weapon, usually an Uzi SMG. Terrorism and associated activities apart, there are very few murders in Israel in spite of the almost universal posession of firearms.

mikehit
mikehit  46104 forum posts United Kingdom9 Constructive Critique Points
19 Dec 2012 - 11:28 AM


Quote: the problem in the States seems to be that everyone has a breaking point and for some it is surprisingly low and when they reach this point the preference for some seems to be that they reach for a firearm rather than seeking help.


Good point. Have they gone from the 80s/90s touchy-feely response of 'get a shrink' for the most mundane of problems to 'f**k it I'll go and kill someone".
Back to that cultural thing again....

Paul Morgan
Paul Morgan e2 Member 1314811 forum postsPaul Morgan vcard England6 Constructive Critique Points
19 Dec 2012 - 5:03 PM


Quote: But how do you define a mental health issue that warrants intensive treatment

Most people with mental health issues are more likely to hurt themselves, not others.

StrayCat
StrayCat  1014406 forum posts Canada2 Constructive Critique Points
19 Dec 2012 - 7:21 PM

Obama said Wednesday that the U.S. needs to make access to mental health care as easy as access to a gun.


Quote: In certain parts of Israel, even farm tractors have a special mounting for a weapon, usually an Uzi SMG. Terrorism and associated activities apart, there are very few murders in Israel in spite of the almost universal posession of firearms.

Israelis have a 60 day waiting period during which an extensive background check is done to get a gun. They also get a lifetime total of 50 bullets.

Some interesting developments are taking place; see here.

Last Modified By StrayCat at 19 Dec 2012 - 7:22 PM

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