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What is the purpose of voting on shots?

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cats_123
cats_123 e2 Member 104023 forum postscats_123 vcard Northern Ireland25 Constructive Critique Points
14 Nov 2012 - 10:50 AM


Quote: Personally I value every single vote/comment and, on average, I would say the number of votes that I get per shot are a good indication of the quality of my work.

If you posted a 'quite good' shot would you rather have

a) 35 votes and lots of 'great work!' comments
or...
b) 10 votes, and a good detailed comment from someone who had thought carefully about it, and gave you an insight into how you could improve it next time so it really was worth 35 votes?

preferably b - but often people don't have time to comment, so I'll take them all Smile

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14 Nov 2012 - 10:50 AM

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MacroMeister
14 Nov 2012 - 10:53 AM


Quote: Because if it is from someones opinion you respect than it may be worth more to you than just an anonymous click.

Well, that seems to me to get right to the heart of this matter. Is this site a collection of closely-related people who go around praising one another, or is it a more objective-looking collection of individuals who make their own judgements, and vote/comment accordingly.

And I would appreciate your view on this. If you are making a comment on someone's shot and you know that they know who you are, will you be more likely, or less, to make a more favourable comment, and also to vote?

Pete
Pete Site Moderator 1318446 forum postsPete vcard ePz Advertiser England96 Constructive Critique Points
14 Nov 2012 - 10:57 AM


Quote: Is this site a collection of closely-related people who go around praising one another, or is it a more objective-looking collection of individuals who make their own judgements, and vote/comment accordingly.

It's both those and many other versions too. Basically, and the thing that most people who have issues with cant get their head around, it's a site that tries to cater for all kinds of photographers and in doing so some mind sets clash with others in the way they use the site.

MacroMeister
14 Nov 2012 - 10:58 AM


Quote: The cliquers need to know who voted so that they can blindly vote in return.

Ooo! you wicked boy, you...Grin

I like the comment on your portfolio profile "I also believe that one sensible, honest comment is more worthwhile than a bucketful of votes, so I've turned them off." Well said.

Last Modified By MacroMeister at 14 Nov 2012 - 10:59 AM
lobsterboy
lobsterboy Site Moderator 1014146 forum postslobsterboy vcard United Kingdom13 Constructive Critique Points
14 Nov 2012 - 11:03 AM


Quote: Is this site a collection of closely-related people who go around praising one another, or is it a more objective-looking collection of individuals who make their own judgements, and vote/comment accordingly.

Both - people use the site how they wish.


Quote: And I would appreciate your view on this. If you are making a comment on someone's shot and you know that they know who you are, will you be more likely, or less, to make a more favourable comment, and also to vote?

Not sure if that is directed at me specifically, but personally I just say what I feel & click what I like.

Last Modified By lobsterboy at 14 Nov 2012 - 11:05 AM
MacroMeister
14 Nov 2012 - 11:05 AM


Quote:
It's both those and many other versions too. Basically, and the thing that most people who have issues with cant get their head around, it's a site that tries to cater for all kinds of photographers and in doing so some mind sets clash with others in the way they use the site.

Or as Lincoln once famously stated "You can please some of the people all of the time, you can please all of the people some of the time, but you can’t please all of the people all of the time”.

I would suggest, Pete, that is exactly what you are not doing (catering for everyone). You seem to be saying that some people are always going to be unhappy, which I would agree with. But if that is so how can you possible cater for everybody? There will always be an unhappy minority. I tried to PM you about this, but your messaging is switched off.

lobsterboy
lobsterboy Site Moderator 1014146 forum postslobsterboy vcard United Kingdom13 Constructive Critique Points
14 Nov 2012 - 11:08 AM


Quote: There will always be an unhappy minority

If they are that unhappy, there are always other sites (many of who have tried various ingenious ways of tacklimg the reciprical click problem). Or they could just take waht they want out of the site & ignore how others use it.

User_Removed
14 Nov 2012 - 11:23 AM

seeing as there seems to be two clear main groups - happy clickers and thoughtful users why not just have two systems running side by side .... a 'like' button and a 'vote' button. Like says ... just what it says "I like this photo" and vote says "I think it's good enough to be considered for a reader's choice award'. That should keep both of the main groups happy - yes?

Personally I would like to use the site that way. Often I like a photo and want to give the photographer that positive response ... yup i LIKE this but don't think it's good enough for a vote. Sometimes it's both and sometimes I don't like it, but it is still good. simply commenting with or without a vote doesn't cover enough possibilities.

And that would increase the scope of comments as well. You can then say ... I really this because .. but it didn't get my vote because .... (or if you want to be nicer you can say it would have got my vote if ....).

Or you can say - this was really good so it got my vote, but I don't like it because it is very dark, difficult to connect with ... whatever .... but I'm still recognising the quality of it.

And as some one who uses comments/votes as one of the ways to improve my own photos I'd appreciate that distinction in the feedback so I can separate what is just an appreciative 'like' from a genuine 'this is good'.

Last Modified By User_Removed at 14 Nov 2012 - 11:30 AM
tezquirk
tezquirk  227 forum posts United Kingdom
14 Nov 2012 - 11:23 AM

What about me , I cant see who voted for my photo's because im not a e2 member YET .... i will join eventually Pete , promise Smile .... But i don't see why you need to know , I have been a member for a year now , And i have learned If i don't get vote's or comment's on a photo , Member's must not like it , So i take it down and upload something else ,
I think this is a better way of teaching people to become better photographers .. Smile Rather than misdirecting the " not that good " group ..

lobsterboy
lobsterboy Site Moderator 1014146 forum postslobsterboy vcard United Kingdom13 Constructive Critique Points
14 Nov 2012 - 11:29 AM


Quote: But i don't see why you need to know

No one is forcing people to look at it.


Quote: a 'like' button and a 'vote' button. Like says ... just what it says "I like this photo" and vote says "I think it's good enough to be considered for a reader's choice award'. That should keep both of the main groups happy - yes?

We had that before when likes were introduced & it confused the hell out of people.

Last Modified By lobsterboy at 14 Nov 2012 - 11:31 AM
BrianSS
BrianSS  7281 forum posts England35 Constructive Critique Points
14 Nov 2012 - 11:31 AM

I couldn't agree with MacroMeister more!

There are far too many Clique votes on EPZ - you vote for me and I'll vote for you. Also I have many times over the years seen very ordinary images (out of focus, poor composition, badly exposed etc.) get over 100 votes, these votes are simply because they have voted for others. I recall seeing a few years ago a series of "Snaps" and that's all they were, that were taken from a moving car . . . . blurred, etc. etc,. etc. they got more votes than I have ever received! Another way of getting votes is the "sympathy vote" - a personal problem, ilness, hospital, family problem etc. where members will say "Hope you are feeling much better now" . . . . vote!

Personally, I think voting for an image is definately a good way of judging how good it is. A recent upload of mine "British Museum" I wasn't even going to upload, but it has received as many votes as I am ever going to get (31 votes, a Guest Editor Award, Readers Choice Award, a suggested crop and even a vote from Pete Wink!) so because of that I am considering entering it into a club competition which I wouldn't have done otherwise.

But I guess clique & sympathy voting is just human nature for some people! Sad

Last Modified By BrianSS at 14 Nov 2012 - 11:58 AM
lobsterboy
lobsterboy Site Moderator 1014146 forum postslobsterboy vcard United Kingdom13 Constructive Critique Points
14 Nov 2012 - 11:37 AM


Quote: Personally, I think voting for an image is definately a good way of judging how good it is. A recent upload of mine "British Museum" I wasn't even going to upload, but it has received as many votes as I am ever going to get (31 votes, a Guest Editor Award, Readers Choice Award, a suggested crop and even a vote from Pete Wink!)

Which illustrates two points:

1. Votes are only valuable in relation to how many clicks you usually get. if you ignore what is happening to other peoples scores and just look at your own relative to each other they can be useful.
2. Even people who don't want to be part of a clique can be interested in who has clicked.

User_Removed
14 Nov 2012 - 11:38 AM


Quote: What about me , I cant see who voted for my photo's because im not a e2 member YET .... i will join eventually Pete , promise Smile .... But i don't see why you need to know , I have been a member for a year now , And i have learned If i don't get vote's or comment's on a photo , Member's must not like it , So i take it down and upload something else ,
I think this is a better way of teaching people to become better photographers .. Smile Rather than misdirecting the " not that good " group ..

Unfortunately lack of votes / comments isn't really indication of whether it is liked or not. Even the time of day you upload affects the number of votes you get because most people don't browse that far back in the gallery. I'm sure that the site stats will reveal that most people browse a few pages in the gallery + a few togs that they have connections to. And that the most votes go to the photos uploaded at peak visiting times (evening in the UK???).

I also think that a poor image that looks good in the thumbnail will get more attention than a good image that looks bad in the thumbnail.

And it is also skewed by what is 'in' at the moment.

User_Removed
14 Nov 2012 - 11:39 AM


Quote: But i don't see why you need to know
No one is forcing people to look at it.

a 'like' button and a 'vote' button. Like says ... just what it says "I like this photo" and vote says "I think it's good enough to be considered for a reader's choice award'. That should keep both of the main groups happy - yes?
We had that before when likes were introduced & it confused the hell out of people.

well any new feature confuses the hell out of people .... for a while Smile

MacroMeister
14 Nov 2012 - 11:50 AM


Quote:
And as some one who uses comments/votes as one of the ways to improve my own photos I'd appreciate that distinction in the feedback so I can separate what is just an appreciative 'like' from a genuine 'this is good'.

The more I think about this (I mean the whole subject, not just your comment) the more I'm convinced that the whole click-vote-fave thing is a waste of time. We all want to improve our photography. Although I consider myself a 'good' photographer, I am still desperate to improve, and I will be until the day I die. You do not improve by getting clicks. It just ain't possible. You need constructive comments. I'm not going to remember in three months time that I got 25 votes for a shot I did of a Lily, but if I were taking a shot of another Lily in three months time I would remember some constructive comment that was made about the composition, and I would probably alter my new shot in order to improve it.

I know there a lot of starter/intermediate photographers on here, and I know that a lot of people are not as articulate as others, but everyone is capable of expressing an opinion, be it a technical one or an emotional one. You don't need to be a great photographer and wordsmith to say in basic terms what you like and don't like about a shot. You shouldn't feel that you can't be critical about other people's shots. What else is the point of posting them here? Just to look at some pretty pictures perhaps? If you want to do that you can see much prettier shots elsewhere. Surely the main advantage of posting on a site such as this is that you improve by getting decent feedback from a range of people. Not just 'clicks.

Last Modified By MacroMeister at 14 Nov 2012 - 11:52 AM

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