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UserRemoved
9 Oct 2004 - 5:09 PM

Spot on - couldnt have put it better myself.

Judging by the large amount of emails I received last week then a lot of people on this site feel the same.

A thread running through all those emails was that people were seeing clicks as 'I'm a great photographer' and god forbid if anyone even thinks about offering criticism. I read about people who now say nothing for fear of the backlash of certain members and their 'friends'.

Worryingly it seems that once some people also read this as the cue to go 'pro' yet its blatanly obvious that their stuff just wont cut it in the real world.
By the real world I mean the world outside their comfort zone of flowers and kittens and robins and photos of their own kids.

Last week, I just thought why the hell should I bother spending my time looking through other peoples photos. Even though I'm off sick and will be for another few months yet, why should I bother?
I dont go with the massaging peoples egos things and believe me there are quite a few I would like to say 'would you ever wise the f**k up!' but dont cos I'm a nice person Wink

The feedback thats given on here (even some of the critical stuff) is incredibly tame compared to other sites and even more so compared to the real world.

Look at some of the portfolios with loads of clicks then look at the forum comments asking some really really basic photography questions.
Look at the porfolios with loads of clicks and compare that to the real insightful, genuine, technicaly answers given on the forum by some people.
In some cases 'a**e and elbow' spring to mind.

There isnt a day goes by when I dont get an MSN message from some forum member saying have you seen x's latest offering? Usually with a one or two liner which makes me laugh out loud.

Having said all that I like this site. I read the forum every day and contribute there as much as I can (and take the p*** more than the odd time as well Wink)

The site is many things to many people but it is unfortunate that judging by some of the correspondence I got last week that some people dont feel they are getting the best out of it.

Critiquing isnt just about the photo, its about asking questions which ask questions in return. Critiquing should be a discussion.

Anyway I'm getting back off the high horse and away to try and make some tea before the real football comes on Wink

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9 Oct 2004 - 5:09 PM

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leda
leda  1080 forum posts
9 Oct 2004 - 5:16 PM

Keeping my comments to myself

Carabosse
Carabosse e2 Member 1139367 forum postsCarabosse vcard England269 Constructive Critique Points
9 Oct 2004 - 5:22 PM

Wrong side of bed this morning, Joe? Lol!! Wink

Agree with quite a bit of what you say. But EPZ is a different sort of site - I visit others sporadically. The problem with critique I guess is how heavily does one weight it?

Just because A doesn't think much of B's photo does not mean that B's photo is lacking in some way. A's judgement may be deluded or misdirected.

"One man's meat is another man's poison" (the expression is not in PC language these days but it is true).

You only have to see the moans about the EC awards. There are many pics in the EC gallery I would not have even clicked let alone given an award to. So what though? Does that mean my judgement is in some way superior to Pete's. Of course it doesn't.

No easy answers here. It is all totally subjective. I'll bet if some of the "Masters" came on here (anonymously) a lot of their pics would get few clicks!

agoreira
agoreira  106001 forum posts Wales
9 Oct 2004 - 5:25 PM

Worryingly it seems that once some people also read this as the cue to go 'pro' yet its blatanly obvious that their stuff just wont cut it in the real world.
By the real world I mean the world outside their comfort zone of flowers and kittens and robins and photos of their own kids. xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Agree 100%. Whilst I'm quite happy taking my amateur happy snaps, I'm amazed at times here when people say they are "going pro". One look at their porfolio will soon reveal that they are going to have to come on a quantum leap if they are to make any money out of it. Also agree with Joe, re the feedback given here. If people believe it and think they are good, post your shots on photonet,fredmiranda etc, and see what feedback you get there. I can assure you, they'll rip you shreds. But it will be honest criticism, and more importantly, relevant and helpful.

Frank

Carabosse
Carabosse e2 Member 1139367 forum postsCarabosse vcard England269 Constructive Critique Points
9 Oct 2004 - 5:32 PM

Yes, going pro means - as one of our pro colleagues put it - being prepared to take 36 pics (creatively!) of a milk bottle. Not robins/sunsets/gerberas.......

It is sad when people misintepret a click/blue heart. All it means is 'I like this pic'.

I can even mean the subject matter is so attractive that 'I like the pic despite the poor photography'!

Or I can even mean........ 'I like you' !

Lol!! Wink

leda
leda  1080 forum posts
9 Oct 2004 - 5:34 PM

or a squirrel

leda
leda  1080 forum posts
9 Oct 2004 - 5:35 PM

sorry, could not help myself

Carabosse
Carabosse e2 Member 1139367 forum postsCarabosse vcard England269 Constructive Critique Points
9 Oct 2004 - 5:38 PM

Glad you liked my squirrel, Leda! Smile

c_evans99
c_evans99  107013 forum posts Wales1 Constructive Critique Points
9 Oct 2004 - 5:40 PM

I do try to limit myself to constructive criticism and qualified praise, but seldom get a response to them.

Ceri

leda
leda  1080 forum posts
9 Oct 2004 - 6:02 PM

loved your squirrel....what an improvement with an DSLR, we now have another pro, but then what is my opinion, I'm just another American

Carabosse
Carabosse e2 Member 1139367 forum postsCarabosse vcard England269 Constructive Critique Points
9 Oct 2004 - 6:12 PM

Hee hee! What a humorist you are Leda! Grin

I have no pretensions to be a pro.... nor the slightest desire. Not my kind of lifestyle at all. I have a certain amount of accumulated knowledge, over many years, and I try to help others if I can.

I don't see too much problem, actually, with people thinking they can go pro. Many will come down to earth with a bump if they try.....

But I wonder how many actually do try?

keithh
keithh  1022557 forum posts Wallis and Futuna29 Constructive Critique Points
9 Oct 2004 - 6:29 PM

Just sold three flower shots for a shed load, Joe....damn better go get em back.
The trouble with critique is the angle it comes from. Joe will tend to look at it from a news paper snapper angle and forget that there are photographers out there/here making a very good living without ever going near newsprint. Not the news section anyway.
I might look at someones work, especially the still lifes and pack shots and view them from a commercial prospective.
Others will view the same shot purely from the 'Do I like it?' angle, without considering if the technical elements are correct or even pleasing.
We all use this site in different ways, come from different backgrounds...those who choose to critique and those who choose to do nothing but praise.
and to those who giggle in the wings, with their ever so perfect noses aloft and say...'Have you seen?!!', may just be getting the same treatment behind their backs.
Everybody started somewhere, even the perfect.
I quite welcome a bit of ripping into...may not agree, and may tell you why..but it wouldn't exact some act of revenge....not on EPZ anyway.
;-]

UserRemoved
9 Oct 2004 - 6:50 PM

LOL Keith,
Maybe I'll dig out the 20 odd shots of a plate of Paella I took on monday night and stick them up for critique Wink

I'm all for appreciating good work from any field. I know I stay away from landscapes but can appreciate a really good one.

Most of my income comes from PR/social stuff but most of the time is spent on news/sports.

We all had to/have to start somewhere and I went through the same learning curve as anyone else on this site. Although I always sought to improve my photography (and still do by seeking advice from those with more experience than me in their fields) but some have the opinion that they dont have anything to learn.

As I say in my profile - every day is a schoolday.
I also learned another gem the first day in my first job after uni - experience is the thing you gain 30 seconds after you needed it and I firmly believe in both those cliches.

I'm not against the clicks or the appreciation aspect, just the attitudes of some people when it doesnt always go their own way.

People need encouragment but as with any form of teaching or learning, there are times when a bump down to earth is required.

keithh
keithh  1022557 forum posts Wallis and Futuna29 Constructive Critique Points
9 Oct 2004 - 6:56 PM

Stick the Paella up, Joe...I'm in ripping mood.
;-]

UserHasLeft
9 Oct 2004 - 6:56 PM

CB, you are becoming one of my favourite forum participants. Your recent input has been balanced, conciliatory and humorous - in fact it always has been but you are the perfect solution for new members wishing to try out their forum debating skills.

You make the most valid point of this and many previous threads:

It is sad when people misintepret a click/blue heart. All it means is 'I like this pic'.

I can even mean the subject matter is so attractive that 'I like the pic despite the poor photography'!

Or I can even mean........ 'I like you' !


This is not a site designed for professional photographers only. I can never understand why it is of such concern that someone is getting glowing praise for their portfolio, however accomplished or not it may be. Is it purely a case of "I have their best interests at heart and don't want to see them disappointed"? I don't think so.

To me it smacks more of "It really bunches my shorts to see someone using this site for interactive and social purposes and to see their photographs gaining widespread attention."

I click on every picture that I leave a comment on. It is a sign of interest in the photographer, their photography or their life in general, not always a sign that I love the photograph. The circles in which I mix on the site contain enough intelligence to realise whether they should turn pro or not. And Keith is right....those who giggle in the wings do get the same treatment - from those who are not silly enough to make it public Smile

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