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Will UK plc crash like so many others?

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puertouk
puertouk  21073 forum posts United Kingdom17 Constructive Critique Points
5 Oct 2013 - 5:55 PM

I sit and wonder what the hell is going on in our once great country, even though I now live in Tenerife. The banks go mad to lend every Tom, **** and Harry money for whatever reason and then we have a slump. People lose their jobs, overtime is cut, prices soar, businesses close and before you know it, we're in the sh*t!!! The banks cry poverty because people cannot pay them back, so that leaves them in the proverbial lurch, or should I say the tax payer. Surely these fat cat bankers who make millions with their jobs, even when they are losing millions seem to still get large bonuses for losing billions of . Am I still on the same planet or am I living in cloud cuckoo land? When I worked in the UK as a Business Manager, if I finished up losing my employer millions of , they would have fired me long before the disaster came to a head. How do these people keep their jobs in the first place? How do they get a golden handshake, worth 100's of thousands or even millions, when I would have been told to p**s off? Is this the old pals act, if they screw up, don't worry as we'll see you right. Surely, people running these banking organisations should have a sound footing in the banking industry and not just walk in off the street who ran another type of business? The Chancellor of the Exchequer, may have gone to some toffee nosed private school and then on to university, but he does not make the decisions about the economy, that's done by the people in the background, your civil servants. So maybe, we should be taking a closer look at these individuals. More private school wallers no doubt. Now this government are at it again, trying to get the banks to loosen their purse strings to lend money for people to purchase their home. Here we go again!!! And to top it all, they want to sell the Post Office, which makes the Government millions of 's. No doubt, it will be bought by all the fat cats who sit behind their office desks making millions out of the normal working class people. Life never changes really, does it!

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5 Oct 2013 - 5:55 PM

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monstersnowman


Quote: Because at the end of the day we produce wealth. Now that wealth is no longer in the manufacturing industries but in the Finance and Banking sector, in addition to Tourism and Science.

The finance sector produce wealth for themselves not others. The evidence is there.

.... and in your expert opinion, what qualifications would they be? Do you honestly vote at all elections?

Someone who has a social conscience and understands that unregulated capitalism is unsustainable, who recognises the financial sector are entirely out for themselves and who will ensure banks and corporations pay their fair share into society by scrapping off shore tax havens and holding tax avoiders to account. That would be a start. Simply appointing your buddy because he's from the same privileged background as you isn't affective, as we see.

Of course I vote, not that I have faith or any real belief that it can influence much, as far as I can see its the same sh*t repeated which ever flag is flying Wink

Its that simple ... ;0)

monstersnowman


Quote: Take the Icelandic example and sack the government would be a good start Wink

Thereafter, as its alleged we live in a democracy actually elect people who are responsible and appoint a Chancellor who has some qualification to do the job Smile

Again, its that simple ;0)

We may aswell just say:

Only vote in good politicians who are honest.
Make sure everyone pays tax.
Make sure everyone has a job.
Make sure nobody is poor.
Make sure nobody steals things anymore.
Etc etc ...

;0P

thewilliam
5 Oct 2013 - 8:52 PM


Quote: I'm convinced that QE was designed to allow "our people" to steal from the public purse.

Speechless, you don't even know what QE is.

I know exactly what QE is. My comment was about the effects of its use.

RBS, as a mostly state-owned bank was supposed to lend money to small businesse to help with the "recovery". One measure of the effectiveness of this policy is that Wonga and other "payday lenders" have started to offer loans to SMEs. The interest rates are a modest couple of hundred percent APR.

mikehit
mikehit  56475 forum posts United Kingdom9 Constructive Critique Points
5 Oct 2013 - 10:58 PM

The biggest problem is that money is nowadays concentrated in a small number of business hands. Even 2 years ago, at the first sign of a recovery people spent more money and that got the economy moving. Now, however, a large proportion of the liquid capital is held by companies (was it measured in billions for Apple) and they are not spending it because they are waiting for the next 'best investment' and that is making a recovery so much harder compared to previous recessions - and that very tactic makes it such a nightmare for all governments, because if you penalise them too much they will not be spending it in your country when they decide to let it go.

Hallie
Hallie  1166 forum posts United Kingdom
6 Oct 2013 - 12:05 AM


Quote: Such a left wing rant about banks and the rich.

No its not, its an observation which is evident.


Quote: The Finance Sector adds millions to the UK economy, it employs thousands of people who earn good money which is being spent in our economy to support thousands of additional people. In addition they pay high taxes which contributes to the wealth of the country and pays for all the benefits we are so good at giving out.

Sorry, who caused this 'economic crisis' and who is actually benefiting from it? Banks seem to be doing fairly well, there isn't much change regarding that. The 'additional' people are a little worse off, in the real world that is. As regards their contribution, I'd just be delighted if they contributed the same percentage of tax that I do.


Quote: I presume that if you were in a position to give a son or daughter a job then you would

If they were competent, absolutely, but not because they're my son or daughter.


Quote: "Simply appointing your buddy because he's from the same privileged background as you isn't affective, as we see". Nothing wrong with that!

Oh dear.


Quote: Finally unregulated capitalism is a preference to unregulated socialism as failure of all the communist economies has proven.

Attaching labels to the same nonsense doesn't actually make one superior to the other.


Quote: I'm convinced that QE was designed to allow "our people" to steal from the public purse.

Speechless, you don't even know what QE is.

Go on then, enlighten us.


Quote: Again, its that simple ;0)

We may aswell just say:

Only vote in good politicians who are honest.
Make sure everyone pays tax.
Make sure everyone has a job.
Make sure nobody is poor.
Make sure nobody steals things anymore.
Etc etc ...

;0P

Of course it isn't that simple. While Iceland may not be perfect, they acted in a manner where they looked after their own people first, not banks and, they're doing fairly well out of it. Makes this crap about banks being 'to big to fail' look a bit weak, don't you think? If you have a contribution other than frivolous comment, lets hear it Wink

collywobles
6 Oct 2013 - 10:03 AM


Quote: I'd just be delighted if they contributed the same percentage of tax that I do.

again another left wing rant...... they currently contribute over 40% of their income, do you not think that is enough? How much of their money do you want? I cannot understand how much of other peoples money you left wingers want. Something like 12% of the wealthiest people in this country contribute about 80% of the countries income. I'm retired and I still contribute over 40% of my income which I do not object to, but enough is enough.

Hallie
Hallie  1166 forum posts United Kingdom
6 Oct 2013 - 10:16 AM


Quote: I'd just be delighted if they contributed the same percentage of tax that I do.

again another left wing rant...... they currently contribute over 40% of their income, do you not think that is enough? How much of their money do you want? I cannot understand how much of other peoples money you left wingers want. Something like 12% of the wealthiest people in this country contribute about 80% of the countries income. I'm retired and I still contribute over 40% of my income which I do not object to, but enough is enough.

Got a link to your stats please?

I thought the tax payer spent something like 66billion on bailing out banks, you may want to correct me.

I'm not left wing (except when I played football in my youth) I just think a little Wink

thewilliam
6 Oct 2013 - 10:29 AM

That figure of 66 billion to bail out the banks seemed a little low because I remember the total as being greater than the cost of fighting the Second World War. I looked it up and according to Wikipedia, it was about 500 billion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_United_Kingdom_bank_rescue_package

Last Modified By thewilliam at 6 Oct 2013 - 10:31 AM
Hallie
Hallie  1166 forum posts United Kingdom
6 Oct 2013 - 10:45 AM


Quote: That figure of 66 billion to bail out the banks seemed a little low because I remember the total as being greater than the cost of fighting the Second World War. I looked it up and according to Wikipedia, it was about 500 billion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_United_Kingdom_bank_rescue_package

Yer man above will probably dispute there ever was a war or put it down to another left wing conspiracy.

brian1208
brian1208 e2 Member 1110284 forum postsbrian1208 vcard United Kingdom12 Constructive Critique Points
6 Oct 2013 - 10:55 AM


Quote: The plan provides for several sources of funding to be made available, to an aggregate total of 500 billion in loans and guarantees. Most simply, 200 billion will be made available for short terms loans through the Bank of England's Special Liquidity Scheme. Secondly, the Government will support British banks in their plan to increase their market capitalisation through the newly formed Bank Recapitalisation Fund, by 25 billion in the first instance with a further 25 billion to be called upon if needed. Thirdly, the Government will temporarily underwrite any eligible lending between British banks, giving a loan guarantee of around 250 billion.[2] However, only 400 billion of this is 'fresh money', as there is already in place a system for short term loans to the value of 100 billion.[3

its always interesting to look at the detail and check whether its real money spent or support available, should it have been needed.

As far as I'm aware, none of the loan guarantees were required and the loans have been or are being repaid by the banks RBS has and llyods is / has as examples

I know its not so much fun to look for the facts rather than the headlines though Wink

collywobles
6 Oct 2013 - 11:28 AM

Got a link to your stats please?

err like 10% NI plus income tax at 20-40% - averages out across the nation as 40%+ per person

Hallie
Hallie  1166 forum posts United Kingdom
6 Oct 2013 - 11:46 AM


Quote: Got a link to your stats please?

err like 10% NI plus income tax at 20-40% - averages out across the nation as 40%+ per person

Sorry, I should have been more specific, the contribution made by the fortunate few to the benefit of the country. Thanks.

keith selmes
6 Oct 2013 - 2:23 PM


Quote: the contribution made by the fortunate few to the benefit of the country

So far as income tax is concerned, for 2010-2011,

Quote: according to the wealth of HMRC figures on the topic, the top 1% of all income taxpayers contributed a whopping 27% of all income tax that year.
By contrast, the bottom 50% of income taxpayers paid just over 11% of income tax.

from http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-17397199

but there are noises off, to the effect that council tax is very unfair, inheritance tax is usually avoided, and that changes in wealth, inheritance and land value taxes may be in order

Quote: the distribution of household wealth is highly skewed towards the wealthiest 10 percent of households, who owned 44 percent of all household wealth in 2008-10, equivalent to 4.5 trillion

http://www.opendemocracy.net/ourkingdom/howard-reed/time-is-now-for-wealth-taxes-in-britain

Other european countries appear to be experimenting with forms of wealth tax as well, with germans in particular complaining that individuals in poorer south european countires actually have much more personal wealth than do the germans.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financialcrisis/9993790/Wealth-tax-to-pay-for...

brian1208
brian1208 e2 Member 1110284 forum postsbrian1208 vcard United Kingdom12 Constructive Critique Points
6 Oct 2013 - 6:17 PM

I've just been reading that the share of Total UK income Tax paid by the top 0.1% of the richest people in the UK has doubled from 7% a few years back to 14% last year

Seems to me that should be enough to satisfy even the most ardent "Tax the Rich" enthusiasts?

On a slightly separate theme it appears that the North of England is leading the South in the current spending mini-boom and in the increase in confidence in their economic future, may rattle a few pre-conceptions if true?

Last Modified By brian1208 at 6 Oct 2013 - 6:20 PM

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