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Will UK plc crash like so many others?

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thewilliam
10 Oct 2013 - 4:14 PM

It seems that the government is about to introduce new rules to restrict healthcare etc for immigrants. This seems a case of penny-wise, pound foolish because they don't seem to worry much about the 10 billion that was wasted on an IT system that didn't work. Or they might just be diverting our attention from the things that really do matter.

Waste seems to be quite normal at every level of government, local, national and European. Unfortunately, when powerful people make mistakes, they try to cover them up or blame somebody else.

When Germany had a national debt of about nine times GDP at the end of the Weimar Republic, there was a convenient prosperous group within their society that could be vilified and stripped of its wealth. There were neighbouring countries that could be invaded and looted. The UK doesn't have that option.

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brian1208
brian1208 e2 Member 1110235 forum postsbrian1208 vcard United Kingdom12 Constructive Critique Points
10 Oct 2013 - 4:41 PM


Quote: Quite possibly, if we continue to live beyond our means: Maybe we need to cut down on quantity and improve quality. Obviously the issues of wastefulness and forward, joined-up thinking needs to be looked at. However, I don't really think any of the main parties are likely to step up to the plate

I quite agree, but maybe for slightly different reasons, summarised by you as "we continue to live beyond our means"

That's all of us, not just our Governments and its also the reason that "I don't really think any of the main parties are likely to step up to the plate", I'm afraid the average voter is so addicted to living beyond their means they will not vote for any Government which tries to rein in our over-spending and waste

And, of course, its always so much easier and better for the individual to blame "Them" rather than looking at themselves as the primary cause of the problems

But I'm only a cynical old ex-socialist turned apolitical conservative (lower case c) so what do I know? Tongue

collywobles
11 Oct 2013 - 8:29 AM


Quote: Waste seems to be quite normal at every level of government, local, national and European

Of course, thats why we de-nationalised the coal, railways, Water, Gas, Electricity, Transport industries- they were all ineficient, riddled with job protection by the Unions. The Newspapers and the Docks were the same and its no coincidence that they have now all gone. Because of all this it was the tax payer who picked up the bill for all these bad practices, so who were the mugs?

Last Modified By collywobles at 11 Oct 2013 - 8:31 AM
lobsterboy
lobsterboy Site Moderator 1014128 forum postslobsterboy vcard United Kingdom13 Constructive Critique Points
11 Oct 2013 - 9:22 AM


Quote: they don't seem to worry much about the 10 billion that was wasted on an IT system that didn't work. Or they might just be diverting our attention from the things that really do matter.

Waste seems to be quite normal at every level of government, local, national and European. Unfortunately, when powerful people make mistakes, they try to cover them up or blame somebody else

Same in the private sector - over the years I have seen millions upon millions p*ssed away on projects that just didn't work, cost more than the previous system or were not used by the users as they didn't meet the business needs.
Usually the person managing the project gets promoted.

collywobles
11 Oct 2013 - 2:54 PM

Same in the private sector - over the years I have seen millions upon millions p*ssed away on projects that just didn't work, cost more than the previous system or were not used by the users as they didn't meet the business needs.
Usually the person managing the project gets promoted.


Maybe, but the tax payer does not fund it and usually the business goes bankrupt.

lemmy
lemmy  71831 forum posts United Kingdom
11 Oct 2013 - 3:16 PM


Quote: We also have a high employment compared to southern Europe. This all goes to give a certain confidence which has a positive knock on the to the economy.

I'm always suspicious of those figures. France, for example, has higher unemployment than the UK - but the UK has 2.5 million not working due to disability plus job seekers etc which means they don't show up as unemployed. When you take account of the UK benefits system, the number of people who do not work is higher than most countries. There's always the possibility that the French are healthier than the British but it seems unlikely.

brian1208
brian1208 e2 Member 1110235 forum postsbrian1208 vcard United Kingdom12 Constructive Critique Points
11 Oct 2013 - 3:50 PM

The IMF no longer seem convinced that we are doomed Wink


Quote: The International Monetary Fund (IMF) has trimmed its forecast for global economic growth at the same time as lifting its UK growth projection

a bit of a change from May this year when they said


Quote: The government has shown flexibility in its fiscal program to mitigate damage to growth, but planned fiscal tightening this year will be a drag on the economy, the IMF said.

lobsterboy
lobsterboy Site Moderator 1014128 forum postslobsterboy vcard United Kingdom13 Constructive Critique Points
11 Oct 2013 - 4:15 PM


Quote: Maybe, but the tax payer does not fund it and usually the business goes bankrupt.

Nope as long as the business is big enough it stays in business. You only have to look at the likes of Google, over the years they have spent millions on buying other companies only to decide the technology they bought wasn't worth implementing and shutting that business unit down. NewsCorp spent $580m on Myspace only a while later to sell it for $35m.
No one sets out to screw up - yet it still happens anyway.


Quote: a bit of a change from May this year when they said

It's almost like Economists make this stuff up as they go along Wink

lemmy
lemmy  71831 forum posts United Kingdom
11 Oct 2013 - 5:07 PM


Quote: NewsCorp spent $580m on Myspace only a while later to sell it for $35m

That was the work of Murdoch's son James. He then went on to try an immense cover up over Murdoch's newspapers involvement in phone hacking.......before being moved to America and promoted.

Good being the boss's son, eh? Tongue

Still, at least we have politicians like George Osborne and David Cameron who have made their own way in the world without family....oh, right. I know, what we need is the two Eds to run the country. At least they weren't associated with 'no more boom and bust' Brown....oh, yes, forgot, sorry.

The only reason the UK hasn't crashed is that our credit card still works. Greece and other countries are having to address their problems because their credit has run out. Our answer is to fuel another house price boom - let's all feel good and fill our boots....so long as you already have a house, of course.

brian1208
brian1208 e2 Member 1110235 forum postsbrian1208 vcard United Kingdom12 Constructive Critique Points
11 Oct 2013 - 7:00 PM


Quote: It's almost like Economists make this stuff up as they go along Wink

who would have believed I! Tongue

I remember listening to a lecture by a professional Economist in my company (one involved in strategic planning to ensure the best returns on capital invested etc) who was talking about a course on "Economic Science". He was somewhat scathing as he explained that economic theory couldn't even explain what had happened historically (as in the Crash and Depression) let alone predict what was going to happen.

It was quite refreshing to hear such heresy Grin

col_c
col_c  1 United Kingdom
1 Nov 2013 - 10:21 PM

UK sovereign debt is now six times GDP.

I am not sure where you get that figure. UK Public debt (Owed by the gowernment) is quoted as being 1,377 bn or 91% of annual GDP. Greece is currently about 160% of GDP. Both these public debt levels are too high to be comfortably serviced with current tax receipts and need to be reduced hence the need to either cut expenditure or raise taxes or do both these things.

If you want to include Private Debt (owed by individuals and private institutions) then you also need to balance that against privately held assets. If you do that then they pretty much balance out. So we owe a lot but also own a lot. That is fairly typical of a trading nation.

Here is a list of Public Debt by country :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_public_debt

brian1208
brian1208 e2 Member 1110235 forum postsbrian1208 vcard United Kingdom12 Constructive Critique Points
2 Nov 2013 - 6:50 AM

there you go again, ruining a perfectly good rant by quoting factual information! Grin

(I thought I was the main culprit for doing that Wink )

col_c
col_c  1 United Kingdom
2 Nov 2013 - 10:19 PM

brian, I know, end of world temporarily postponed by reference to easily obtained facts...Smile

col_c
col_c  1 United Kingdom
10 Nov 2013 - 12:28 PM

I should perhaps apologise for the above comment but it really gets me annoyed that the press publishes so much exaggerated and scary stuff. It is not surprising that people come away with the idea that the world as we know it is about to end. The bit that annoys me is that the journalists responsible for these sensationalist articles must know they are misleading. I suppose 'shock, horror' sells more copy than reporting of a cirisis which is bad enough without any exaggeration.

brian1208
brian1208 e2 Member 1110235 forum postsbrian1208 vcard United Kingdom12 Constructive Critique Points
10 Nov 2013 - 12:50 PM


Quote: I suppose 'shock, horror' sells more copy than reporting of a cirisis which is bad enough without any exaggeration.

my wife and I now have a saying that calms us down (a bit) "Remember, the press and media report stories not news",

everything has to be "the worst" etc, hyperbole has taken over from fact

My real concern is that many people don't seem to have realised this and believe what they hear is the truth (and react in the way that the media want - thus increasing their influence on events)

How do you start a buying panic?

Write an article claiming that the "Minister for Food" (made up name) has declared that "there is no reason to panic" Tongue

Last Modified By brian1208 at 10 Nov 2013 - 12:51 PM

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