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I think this photo i posted on my fb page just recently says it all !
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Quote: OK, I'm going to be controversial here (I know, not like me...) so stay with me. Forgetting the websites, Lucian has a very valid arguement.
He is aiming at a section of the market that exists and that is VERY affluent - but one that would rather spend money on fancy favours and venues as they don't appreciate or value their photography. This section of the market generally relies on the wedding being paid for by a family member(s) or on a lifelong insurance payout, with little input from themselves. They therefore want to turn it into a "show" wedding - a wedding to make people believe that the family are far more affluent than they maybe actually are. So the things that matter are not things like the pictures, it's the "show" items.
I've see it a lot over the years. I've turned up at a house (of the brides parents generally) and it's located in a rat-infested hole of a council estate, now over-ran with druggies. They've brought their kids up in this environment and on the wedding day they get a horse-drawn carriage to draw up and take them to a 4-star hotel where they have to have the menu translated for them. Then they pour them £50 champagne which most of them have never tasted in their lives - this is the families version of how "affluent" they are; a day more about "show" than "love".
So back to Lucian. He wants to sell to this market, so he's casting his net far and wide - and he'll get them. Why? - because they wouldn't know a good picture if it jumped up and bit them on the nose. They are buying on price alone - back by Tuesday? - I bet you they wouldn't care about this if the price was £50 cheaper.
Now I'm not saying that I'm right and he's wrong, but we're trying to appeal to a different market - the educated against the uneducated. The educated would see a well-exposed and composed, romantic, sharp picture every time - and you can tell these couples straight away. The uneducated see the pictures as being better than what they or their friends take and so are acceptable. The album is a bonus and hey, the price is £650 against me who wants £1200. So Lucian gets the deal.
But here comes the controversey.... why should people be told (as they are by magazines and websites all the time) that the BEST photographer is an MPA member, with an LMPA (at least...) and a table full of sample albums that has a selection of the following photoshopped results - ultra-dark vignettes, a page of sepia tone, an HDR page, an ultra-wide page (portrait of course), several images with VERY shallow depth of field and several poses where the bride and groom look moodily at the floor?? - does all of this constitute good wedding photography?? - Lucians clients don't think so - and there are LOTS of them!!...
Where is Lucian's development as a photographer coming from?? - by supplying images to the uneducated or by stepping up his game and appealing to the educated and meeting their demanding eye? The answer is simple, but the business answer is different - and that's the point he is TOTALLY missing here. We all, at some point, have to challenge our inner standards to improve and in doing so we drive our businesses forward.
Lucian is NOT INTERESTED in challenging himself to improve. So he's happy to work 50 weddings a year for his target market to generate an income that, after costs, probably equates to around £6/hour - or just above minimum wage. That's why he, and many like him, are ruining the market... and why he NEVER gets support from the likes of me or pulsar69 when he posts on here - we simply think that our talent is worth more than minimum wage.
I think this statement is far from accurate in many ways. You are assuming what sort of client i deal with when the reality is that i deal with many sorts of people. £6 per hour WTF. I earn far more than that. remember i only spend about 5 hours after the wedding finishing the job of. If i was charging £1200 i would not have got some of the jobs i have. Its not about what you get of a couple that makes you money its the amount of money you make in reprints after the day and the amount of referals you get from clients. There is no point having a £1200 client recommending me to people who have not got £1200.
I do like the expression that was used about casting my net far and wide though, it implys that i am trapping people and i think that is a little more accurate than the firing bullets and hitting the target one because i dont want to shoot people lol. I will just keep trying to catch people in my net.
Ok then, so on your £650 wedding what is your hourly profit rate?, ie, the actual rate per hour you earn in profit AFTER EXPENSES. I bet you have no idea, or even what I'm on about.
Wtf do you keep babbling on about reprints for? What is this nonsense you're sprouting about "it doesn't matter what you get off the couple, its the reprints you sell after the day"?? Why reprints? Why sell them a reprint with a £5 profit when you could sell them a whole disc of images for £200 profit? Or a slideshow on disc that takes 1hour to make and you charge £100 for?
Its clear that you have neither the photographic or business skills that I would say are required to get you far in this business. Carry on flogging your £5 reprints and the best of luck to you.
Quote: I really believe Lucian is having a field day winding us all up, 10 - 13 websites indeed, and photo's ready in an album by Tuesday.... dont make me laugh!
Your business model lacks integrity - bit like a machine gun approach where sometimes you hit the target but most shots miss. Its quality that counts not quantity and as you do not post any images on EPZ for us to make an assessment thats how you will be judged.
Actually he's not. I've just located them via Google by searching on the contact mobile # of his main, own name branded website. Not too good at hiding your tracks James. lol.
Quote: If I'm not mistaken, Lucian charges about £650 for his wedding package (I'm sure he'll correct this if I'm wrong). I imagine that is on the low side these days, although not ultra-low?
Advertising prices starting at £350.
In response to your post, I agree that there are an element of clients looking for artistic work, and there are many togs who could provide such a service. I'm simply saying that the over-artistic side is a very small percentage in my experience. I'm happy to provide and do provide lots of ps work in my final albums, but the "bride with green hair under a purple sky" aint for me thanks...
Quote: Advertising prices starting at £350.
........ and that includes an Album by Tuesday?
That business model cannot stack up if you think about the attendance time, editing time, amortisation of camera's etc, car costs, overheads, tax ........ need I go on?
If Lucian was to post some images or list his website so we can look the forum may well come to an end.
Maybe Lucien and Scottishphototours could both list out how many weddings they do a year, what the gross & net profit are, so that we know better who is actually going further in this business, rather than just keep giving Lucien some stick?
It is always good to aim high....but then who is aiming low? Lucien.... Some people shop at Marks and Spencer, some people shop at Primark.
I send another photographer for cheap packages if i am double booked and the prices work out more expensive than meets the eye because i put limitations on what the client gets. I tell the client that the cd package prices are only up to a certain resoltion or their choice and they have to pay a lot more for ones that can be printed and £75 per hour for additional coverage. The average profit for weddings i done last year was about £920 so i think that is ok. I sell a lot of reprints and canvases sell quite well as well. I can get canvasses for £25 and sell them for £95 and do an average 2 per wedding.
Quote: I send another photographer for cheap packages if i am double booked
OMG it doesnt advertise that on any of your sites, you are digging yourself a massive hole to crawl out of here Lucian and i STILL do not understand why when your work shows potential , and 920 profit per wedding ???? really i charge more than you and after taking all expenses etc into account dont come to that much. Is that your own workings out or actual figures from an accountant ?
Its like everything there is more than one way of getting to the same place. We all have our own ways of getting their. Do you not think my profit is enough. I dont think i can make more money due to people having small budgets.
You just took them for £920 net!!
leaving this conversation now .... had enough
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