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Carabosse
Carabosse e2 Member 1139395 forum postsCarabosse vcard England269 Constructive Critique Points
7 Jun 2012 - 12:41 AM

We don't even know the right questions to ask let alone have the ability to find the answers. We are a tiny blob of rock circulating around an insignificant star........... just one out of an estimated septillion stars in the observable universe - that's 1 followed by 24 zeros.

Homo sapiens has only been around for 200,000 years out of the universe's age of 13.7 billion years, i.e. 0.0015%. Logic and probability suggests there are sentient beings in the universe who are vastly more advanced than we, and who would look upon us much as we would look upon ants.

But we still think we're pretty special. Lol! Wink

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monstersnowman
7 Jun 2012 - 12:58 AM


Quote: I have no problem with people being religious / Christian (I thought Christianity was a religion?... clearly misinformed) , I just don't like it being rammed down my throat. [/soapbox off]

I was keen on keeping out of this one but I saw the opening and wondered exactly when the phrase 'having religion rammed down our throats', was used. It always amuses when I see this phrase - and it almost always relates to religion, and christian religion at that. I really dont feel that religion is rammed down our throats more than any other subject we come across but many dont seem to have any tolerance for anyone talking about their beliefs and faith . We can hear someone talk about their political belief, their paranormal beliefs, there sporting favourites, their views on the existence of aliens, feng shui, spiritualism, etc etc but as soon as someone mentions christian religion we feel the mere mention of it is akin to having it rammed down our throats. People even take offence at the mere saying of prayers in their company or the symbolism being present. It is as if it is the subject nobody must ever mention .. to be believed if one wishes but never to be spoken of in anything other than like-minded company - as if the mere mention of religion and faith is part of some religious press-ganging or forced indoctrination. A guilty sin almost.

I am not religious but I dont think there is anything forcible about simply hearing someone talk about their faith, even saying what they believe in or quoting scripture ... I dont actually recall seeing the accusation ever aimed at other religions though .. although I happy to be shown otherwise. I personally have never had religion rammed down my throat, even at the door by JW's - I simply close the door. I say, if someone wants to talk about their faith then good luck to them - I would expect nothing less. We dont tell global warming believers and non-believers to remain silent about their beliefs - that would be ridiculous yet we dont feel their views are being rammed down our throats (well ... actually I sometimes feel that the believers bit is being forced, and to question it is a taboo, but thats another story).

I wonder how quiet a religious person would actually have to be about their faith to stop people feeling it was being rammed down their throats - I think being 'silent' would be where the line was drawn, which seems a little intolerant of someone else's faith or opinion, whatever type it may be or on whatever subject. If we got any more intolerant of religion we may end up back in the days of secret chapels and priest holes etc ;o) And there was me thinking we were a tolerant society :o)

Last Modified By monstersnowman at 7 Jun 2012 - 1:06 AM
Tooth
Tooth  95772 forum posts Ireland227 Constructive Critique Points
7 Jun 2012 - 1:06 AM

as the OP said


Quote: As I said though you do have a choice and you have made your choice, I hope that choice will one day change.

and therein lies the problem IMO. Aco is entitled to his belief and I'm happy if it makes him happy ..I don't hope his choice will one day change, I really don't give a toss whether it does or not, because it's nothing to do with me. Likewise my own personal choices are none of his business.

Stephen

monstersnowman

Is there really something wrong with the OP hoping someone will change their choice one day if he truly feels it will benefit their life and welfare? You say you dont care what he thinks and you probably dont care what I or others think but the fact that you are a regular contributor to the forums suggests you may wish to influence people's opinions on any number of subjects and you do feel they should know yours ... I am also sure that if you feel they are wrong one motivation for your posts would be to convince others that they are wrong and you are right - even on unimportant subjects. I feel you would be unique if this was not the case. It would be a pretty baron and empty, non-evolving world if we cared only for our own opinion and little or none for other's beliefs and did not share what we reasonable thought were our enlightened understandings with others for the greater good.

Carabosse
Carabosse e2 Member 1139395 forum postsCarabosse vcard England269 Constructive Critique Points
7 Jun 2012 - 2:43 AM

The problem seems to revolve around this bit of the OP's starting post:


Quote: There is only one way this world will ever be a better world - go and read how in the Bible beginning at the gospel of Matthew to the end of the book.

I.e. the words "There is only one way" coupled with an unspecific urging to read the New Testament.

monstersnowman

It's his opinion, rightly or wrongly. Since when was a firmly held belief (believing it is the only way) an automatic reason to not listen or to suggest they shouldn't voice their own belief or to suggest to do so is not reasonable and is akin to ramming it down our throats. I am sure many Muslims feel the Quran is the only way to a better life, likewise many socialists feel the socialists principles are the only way to a better world ... we just seem to feel this dogma is particularily unacceptable with christian religion. The Jewish and Islamic faith see their own as the only way as well. We see this dogmatic approach in all areas of life ... I dont subscribe to it but I do defend anyone's right to have such faith as long as it is not forced upon us to also follow such faith. It is what makes this country far more free, liberal and tolerant than many others.

Graysta
Graysta  91134 forum posts England
7 Jun 2012 - 5:19 AM

See how many problems an i phone app has created all ready.
I don't think it's worth swapping from my DSLR's seems like too manty religious issues with it.

mikehit
mikehit  56329 forum posts United Kingdom9 Constructive Critique Points
7 Jun 2012 - 9:27 AM


Quote: I have no problem with people being religious / Christian (I thought Christianity was a religion?... clearly misinformed) , I just don't like it being rammed down my throat. [/soapbox off]

I was keen on keeping out of this one but I saw the opening and wondered exactly when the phrase 'having religion rammed down our throats', was used. It always amuses when I see this phrase - and it almost always relates to religion, and christian religion at that. I really dont feel that religion is rammed down our throats more than any other subject we come across but many dont seem to have any tolerance for anyone talking about their beliefs and faith . We can hear someone talk about their political belief, their paranormal beliefs, there sporting favourites, their views on the existence of aliens, feng shui, spiritualism, etc etc but as soon as someone mentions christian religion we feel the mere mention of it is akin to having it rammed down our throats. People even take offence at the mere saying of prayers in their company or the symbolism being present. It is as if it is the subject nobody must ever mention .. to be believed if one wishes but never to be spoken of in anything other than like-minded company - as if the mere mention of religion and faith is part of some religious press-ganging or forced indoctrination. A guilty sin almost.

I am not religious but I dont think there is anything forcible about simply hearing someone talk about their faith, even saying what they believe in or quoting scripture ... I dont actually recall seeing the accusation ever aimed at other religions though .. although I happy to be shown otherwise. I personally have never had religion rammed down my throat, even at the door by JW's - I simply close the door. I say, if someone wants to talk about their faith then good luck to them - I would expect nothing less. We dont tell global warming believers and non-believers to remain silent about their beliefs - that would be ridiculous yet we dont feel their views are being rammed down our throats (well ... actually I sometimes feel that the believers bit is being forced, and to question it is a taboo, but thats another story).

I wonder how quiet a religious person would actually have to be about their faith to stop people feeling it was being rammed down their throats - I think being 'silent' would be where the line was drawn, which seems a little intolerant of someone else's faith or opinion, whatever type it may be or on whatever subject. If we got any more intolerant of religion we may end up back in the days of secret chapels and priest holes etc ;o) And there was me thinking we were a tolerant society :o)

An excellent summary. Because of a vociferous proselytising minority (and I don;t include aco in this) it seems taboo to discuss religion which is a shame. I wonder if it is because it is by definition a faith and there comes a point that no 'fact' is needed - you either believe or don't believe and that makes some people uncomfortable?

Big Bri
Big Bri  1315557 forum posts England
7 Jun 2012 - 9:49 AM

OK I couldn't stay away.... Wink

I have no problem with the OP expressing his/her opinion in the Off Topic forum. It's not ramming down anyone's throat (although I do disagree with the compulsory RE lessons my kids have to do at school).

However, when you post something like that on an open forum, you have to accept the range of feelings it will generate. I stated my case - I was raised as a Catholic, but I just see too much hypocrisy from the Church. Stating that something is unequivocally true because somebody wrote that somebody else said it was the word of God... suffering from differing versions, translation issues, yet slaughtering anyone who disagreed, and now continuing with the "unequivocal truth" idea, but deciding that some things can be "re-interpreted" for the modern age.... well I'm sorry. You either believe it or you don't.

This is what surprises me about gay couples who want to marry in church. If the church tells you that homosexuality is a sin, then you either believe that (along with everything else) or you don't (along with everything else). So why would they want to stay in that Church? You can't pick and choose which rules to stick to. And for me, there are too many rules that are simply wrong.

lemmy
lemmy  71835 forum posts United Kingdom
7 Jun 2012 - 10:23 AM

The central problem with pushing Christianity or any other religion is that religion has been responsible for some of the most vile and cruel acts in human history. It has also been responsible for some of the best. Which leads to the obvious conclusion that it doesn't matter if god exists or not since people will behave as they always have, well or badly, and use religion to justify or explain it.

What I fail to understand with people like the OP is why they feel they must try to persuade other people to believe as they do. I am a lifelong atheist but I feel no need to persuade others not to believe in god. These are personal decisions and too important to be left to the charlatans and snake oil salesmen of organised religion. Jesus saw no reason for an organised religion or to go to a church to worship.

I'm not a Jew but it fascinates me that their religion sees them as god's chosen people. So chosen that he let a megalomaniac butcher millions of them unhindered. I'll take my chances as an atheist, thanks Wink

Carabosse
Carabosse e2 Member 1139395 forum postsCarabosse vcard England269 Constructive Critique Points
7 Jun 2012 - 11:27 AM

I don't actually believe in atheism because you have to define what it is you don't believe in - and once you do that you are limiting the possibilities. As I said earlier in the thread we are not capable of formulating the questions let alone finding the answers. Agnosticsm is another matter.

Perhaps the OP would like to have a chat with Buddhists and Hindus and suggest to them they ought to be reading the New testament. He may well find they have alternative suggestions for him. Smile

lobsterboy
lobsterboy Site Moderator 1014128 forum postslobsterboy vcard United Kingdom13 Constructive Critique Points
7 Jun 2012 - 11:33 AM


Quote: I don't actually believe in atheism because you have to define what it is you don't believe in

Simple - all the gods people keep making up.

gcarth
gcarth e2 Member 102287 forum postsgcarth vcard United Kingdom1 Constructive Critique Points
7 Jun 2012 - 11:39 AM


Quote: I'm not a Jew but it fascinates me that their religion sees them as god's chosen people. So chosen that he let a megalomaniac butcher millions of them unhindered. I'll take my chances as an atheist, thanks Wink

I agree entirely: There are of course many splendid people among Jews but I do agree that there is this feeling among some of them (especially the powerful among them) that they think they have a special right to exist: Well, a certain Adolf Hitler seemed to think the same way about his Aryan race...

lemmy
lemmy  71835 forum posts United Kingdom
7 Jun 2012 - 11:44 AM

My atheism is not a belief but the result of my own thoughts and observations of the world around me. Its operation, for human purposes and limited as we are by our senses, appears to me to be random. I don't have to define what I don't believe in since I don't believe in anything.

That central observation leads me to take a much less jaundiced and more hopeful view of people and life than a religious one would. It also means that I have no reason to want or not want others to think as I do.

There's nothing quite as funny as when Jehovah's Witnesses come to the door. They always start by asking "do you believe the world is becoming a more violent and frightening place." I respond that, no I feel the world is a much better place now than it ever was. We send aid to Africa to aid the starving, we send in peacekeepers at times of war. Imagine Henry V's reaction at Agincourt if someone wanted to send in peacemakers to try to protect civilians. Or Hitler's reaction at Stalingrad. We are not good but we are getting better".

The poor loves can't deal with such a reaction at all because they operate from a script. It is in their interests as they see it to frighten people. So they retreat hastily, handing out leaflets as they go Grin

mikehit
mikehit  56329 forum posts United Kingdom9 Constructive Critique Points
7 Jun 2012 - 11:56 AM


Quote: I'm not a Jew but it fascinates me that their religion sees them as god's chosen people. So chosen that he let a megalomaniac butcher millions of them unhindered. I'll take my chances as an atheist, thanks Wink I agree entirely: There are of course many splendid people among Jews but I do agree that there is this feeling among some of them (especially the powerful among them) that they think they have a special right to exist: Well, a certain Adolf Hitler seemed to think the same way about his Aryan race...

The Boers moving to S Africa saw themselves as God's chosen people, the early British settlers in the Americas saw themselves as God's chosen people - interestingly the common denominator is that they viewed themselves as persecuted so according to the scriptures they were, de facto, God's chosen people.
Factions of US politics look on American's as 'Gods chosen people' for the opposite reason: God made them strong for a reason. And sections of the British ruling classes had the same view at the height of the Empire.


Quote: The poor loves can't deal with such a reaction at all because they operate from a script.

Back in the 80s my friend had a different response: "What do you know about the Jehovah' Witnesses" to which he replied "I know about Joyce McKinney". That definitely was not in their script.

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