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MrDennis
MrDennis  5226 forum posts Wales
2 Aug 2010 - 12:38 AM

Been going through ALL the forums in this site tonight. Eyes are tired after reading a lot. Anyway, I stumbled on this B&W forum, so thought I had better join just to ask my question.
I will post an image or two later in week.
The old days of the Darkroom is always refered to as B&W, but around various Forums and places on the net, and mostly in camera clubs these days, the word "Monochrome" is now used.
What is the Difference between them?? Look forward to your answers.
I will give you my definition, but please don't be afraid to say if I'm wrong.

B&W in the darkroom was B&W/Toneing from Blue to pink etc., LITH (my favourite) and all kinds of other things you can think of too numerouse for me to mention here.

Monochrome--Like it was invented by FIAP or those that say, because we are now Digital we can not reproduce those old tones for cataloge purposes. So Lith is no longer B&W because it has Pink and some other colour in it. Tri-Tones is no longer B&W or even Duotones.

I like all aspects of b&w but glad I got Photoshop and silver efex as it makes life easier. No more smelly spilt toners, dev etc., on the floor or yourself, though I do miss my lith.

Your turn!

Dennis.

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2 Aug 2010 - 12:38 AM

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User_Removed
2 Aug 2010 - 7:15 AM

Hello Dennis. Welcome to the Black & White group. Smile

This debate comes up every so often, and I suppose for the more pedantic (which actually is often me Tongue ) monochrome is the more accurate description. A lot of B&W has some toning - I usually add a bit of warming at least.

But... I think the term Black & White has more pedigree and is generally understood better - it has an immediate 'value' that relates to the end product for most people. 'Black & White Photography' magazine has retained that title, even though they include toned images, I suspect because that's what the target market recognises, understands and wants.

I think your explanation of why it was used as a term for toned prints hits the nail on the head. Even in these digital days it is likely that you will go through a Black & White stage before adding toning. I usually aim for a B&W image I am satisfied with before toning.

I suppose even for Black & White, though, monochrome would be more accurate, as it is not usually black and white but shades of one tone - grey.

In the end I, though, like to use the term Black & White and, like you, I'm glad to have Photoshop and Silver Efex to do the work.

Brett

Just Jas
Just Jas  1225727 forum posts England1 Constructive Critique Points
2 Aug 2010 - 9:43 AM


Quote: I suppose even for Black & White, though, monochrome would be more accurate, as it is not usually black and white but shades of one tone - grey

.

Or greyscale?

I prefer B&W myself - the scale of tones goes from black to white - vice versa!

MrDennis
MrDennis  5226 forum posts Wales
2 Aug 2010 - 2:46 PM

Hi bret, Thank you for the Welcome.

I do tend to agree with you there. I prefer to use the word B&W (Black & White) rather than Monochrome. But as usual, it's 'Horses for Courses' so it's a good job we all know what both terms mean.

Unfortunatly, I'm one of those photographers, that when taking an image in camera, I can not see in B&W. My imagination just does not work. LOL
Am Glad that Photoshop is around along with Silver Efex and a few others, to make our lives easier.
Mind you, I do like to use the 'Channel Mixer' from time to time, just to pretend I can be creative. Smile

Hi Just Jas

I have to be honest. When I see anyone useing Greyscale to convert to B&W I cringe, knowing there are better ways to do it. JMHO
Glad you prefer B&W.

Now all I got to do is learn how to use that Dodge & Burn tool in order to get my B&W images to pop out at you all, like I see others doing.

Must go now, things to do. Will pop an image in the forum soon for your honest Critique/Comments.

Taa Raa for now.

Dennis.

User_Removed
2 Aug 2010 - 4:04 PM


Quote: I have to be honest. When I see anyone useing Greyscale to convert to B&W I cringe

I don't think that was what Jas was suggesting - just that it is a perfectly good alternative description. Smile


Quote: Now all I got to do is learn how to use that Dodge & Burn tool

With the control over light I get in raw conversion (ACDSee Pro3) and the control point feature in Silver Efex I actually rarely resort to dodge and burn any more. I would guess using HDR programs also reduces the need for it.

I have tried other methods - Channel Mixer and Gradient Map, for example - and still do occasionally, but in the end Silver Efex does what I want and gives such control I tend to stick with it.

Looking forward to seeing your images.

MrDennis
MrDennis  5226 forum posts Wales
2 Aug 2010 - 4:55 PM

It's the way I word things sometimes bret, the wrong way without thinking. I knew what Jas was suggesting.
I do put a few through "Dynamic - photo hdr" but need to explore that program a bit more to find the best sliders to use etc., You can put one Jpg or tiff through it or a raw or 3 raws.
it is quite a good program, but you need to know what you be doing or you can make a gastly mess like I do sometimes. LOL

Off out on a shoot now with some friends. Hopefully I'll get something decent.

Cheers.

fatherpie
fatherpie  6 England12 Constructive Critique Points
6 Aug 2010 - 10:08 AM

To be honest I tend to use "Black & white" and "monochrome" inter-changeably.

Dave

Nick_w
Nick_w e2 Member 73802 forum postsNick_w vcard England99 Constructive Critique Points
6 Aug 2010 - 10:26 AM

Don't get hung up on it they tend to be used interchangably. I guess from the latin:

Mono=0ne
Chrome= Light (capturing)

I could argue true Black and white is a monochrome, whereas a Monochrome isnt necisarily Black and White. Could go from Blue to White etc etc.

White just happens to reflect all colours, so will always be part of a monochrome spectrum.

Just Jas
Just Jas  1225727 forum posts England1 Constructive Critique Points
6 Aug 2010 - 12:47 PM


Quote: White just happens to reflect all colours, so will always be part of a monochrome spectrum.

Er.../ not quite - a surface is white because it reflects all visible colours - hence it is not truly a colour itself - and cannot be called monochrome - it is multi-chrome!

I.e It doesn't reflect all colours because it's white.

It's white because reflects all colours. It mere reflects all the white light (which contains all the visible colours in the spectrum) which falls upon it.

If light were passed through a red filter (which absorbs or blocks all colours except red) the previously 'white' surface would appear red - because it only receives red light it can only reflect red light.

Last Modified By Just Jas at 6 Aug 2010 - 12:59 PM
Nick_w
Nick_w e2 Member 73802 forum postsNick_w vcard England99 Constructive Critique Points
6 Aug 2010 - 1:03 PM

Actually Jas Yes as the Chrome relates to the visible spectrum that can be seen by the eye, ca 350 - 750 nm (IR >ca 750 nm UV

Last Modified By Nick_w at 6 Aug 2010 - 1:04 PM
MrDennis
MrDennis  5226 forum posts Wales
6 Aug 2010 - 5:43 PM

That's it Nick--You gone and BAFFLED me now with all that Arithmetic..LOL
Black is Black & White is White..That's all I want to know. All the shades of White, & All the shades of Black can come and join in as well. Smile Smile

Now, this weekend I must show a B&W to see what you All have to say about it..

Have a Good Weekend All.

Snapper
Snapper  93690 forum posts United States Minor Outlying Islands3 Constructive Critique Points
6 Aug 2010 - 6:09 PM

They're all just shades of grey and you can read all about it in the Wikipedia entry.

Grayscale is really a digital thing concerning pixels and computers, as opposed to a film one. Wink

Last Modified By Snapper at 6 Aug 2010 - 6:10 PM
Just Jas
Just Jas  1225727 forum posts England1 Constructive Critique Points
7 Aug 2010 - 10:14 AM


Quote: ...as the Chrome relates to the visible spectrum that can be seen by the eye

I believe that I had already said this viz:


Quote: .....which contains all the visible colours in the spectrum..

jas Smile

Nick_w
Nick_w e2 Member 73802 forum postsNick_w vcard England99 Constructive Critique Points
7 Aug 2010 - 12:14 PM

Sorry Jas there was a far more detailed explanation but for some reason it's been truncated. Maybe cos I was telling on a phone. Basically from what I understood you were refering to the whole em spectrum including IRand UV however Chrome refers to visible light - I could go into a lot of detail ( it's been a big part of my job for nearly 30 years) but it's a bit academic.

Mono and B&W are interchangable in the real world.

Just Jas
Just Jas  1225727 forum posts England1 Constructive Critique Points
8 Aug 2010 - 11:16 AM


Quote: Basically from what I understood you were refering to the whole em spectrum including IRand UV

No - I said "all the visible colours" - The UV and IR extreme ends of the spectrum are not visible to the human eye.

I think basically we are in agreement! Smile

Nelkons 'A Level Physics' deal with the subject reasonably well - part of my coursework at one time.Grin
jas

(Off out now to take some piccys Smile )

Last Modified By Just Jas at 8 Aug 2010 - 11:18 AM

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