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Ephotozine now the Photographic Equivalent of the Daily Mail

Henchard > Henchard Blog > Ephotozine now the Photographic Equivalent of the Daily Mail
06/08/2008 - 8:49 AM



Unique views 1361 (3008)

I used to like Ephotozine, a good place to meet fellow enthusiasts and get some good critique and helpful advice. Unfortunately (it seems TO ME - please note that this is my opinion) it has become the photographic equivalent of the Daily Mail. i.e. just an extension of middle class, white suburbia.

Things came to a head with my forum posting exposing (or rather quantifying because we all know how it works) the reciprocal clicking nonsense. It finally got locked of course and it appears to me that 'the nice shot brigade' finally got their way because that is presumably where most of the membership now comes from. They keep site traffic up and maximise the potential advertising revenue (how anyone can even view the site without having an adblocker installed is a complete mystery to me). As a result photographs now posted in the gallery are pretty lamentable (not all by any means but they make up the vast majority) and serious discussion and critiques hardly exist. (I got a number of PM's from people saying how they can no longer be bothered to offer any meaningful comments on photos because it isn't worth the grief).

I still pop back from time to time to read the news etc. but I've stopped contributing (posting photos, forum help/comments) to the site and will let my e2 subscription lapse because it really isn't worth it any more (IMHO).

I know many will disagree with, me tell me to shut up, not throw my teddy out of the pram (I haven't). This is my blog space and I'll tell it how I see it. It'll be interesting to see if the site management pick up on it and try to censor it like the forums.

If enough people show any interest I'll come back and post further comments on what I see as the downward spiral into the world of 'nice shot old boy', clichéd robins, sunsets, bluebells etc. A world where hardly anyone steps out of the box to try something imaginative or cutting edge; because, let's face it, if they were imaginative or cutting edge they wouldn't be reading the Daily Mail or be worried about how many people clicked on their photographs.

Tags: Click cliques, Daily mail, Epz

Comments

Pete
Pete Site Moderator 1318739 forum postsPete vcard ePz Advertiser England96 Constructive Critique Points
6 Aug 2008 - 9:37 AM


Quote: Things came to a head with my forum posting exposing (or rather quantifying because we all know how it works) the reciprocal clicking nonsense. It finally got locked of course and it appears to me that 'the nice shot brigade' finally got their way because that is presumably where most of the membership now comes from.

Absolutely not...this group is small...just like the group opposing it. What we would like is for those extremes to find their part of ePHOTOzine which, as I keep saying, is like a huge pub.

This pub has the opportunity for you to do all kinds of things and is set up to attract all kinds of clientèle. If you like quizzes play the quiz machine, if you like pool play, if you like drinking alchopops do so, if you like blackcurrant in you Guinness have it, if you like eating in a quiet corner do so. But all we ask is that you don't go to the person pouring blackcurrant into Guinness and say he shouldn't be spoiling a drink. And that's what's happened with your thread. that we left running far too long.

The site has many more quality photographers, and many of those who you are upset about become good...Maddie is one example that was clearly attacked in the early days that put up with the abuse you like to throw.


Quote: If enough people show any interest I'll come back and post further comments on what I see as the downward spiral

That would be really great thanks!

Turn you negative energy into something positive John.

This is your place as much as the next persons. Rather than slam it help make your corner of the site better for you. We have all the tools in place so you can do anything. It can still be a good place to meet fellow enthusiasts and get some good critique and helpful advice - you just have to use the features to do this. Examples: set up debate in the forums (not slagging of the blackcurrant drinkers) , create groups for specialist interest, start challenges, start critique circles. It's all been discussed you just have to be bothered to make this what you want rather than expect it all to be delivered on a plate.

Last Modified By Pete at 6 Aug 2008 - 9:46 AM
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6 Aug 2008 - 9:40 AM

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mark2uk
mark2uk  8739 forum posts England8 Constructive Critique Points
6 Aug 2008 - 9:40 AM

hear hear!
Well said John.
My photography is not adventurous as it could be, but I am here to learn how to improve my techniques and find what works for me. I found your forum posting very revealing regarding the reciprocal clicking.

pepperst
pepperst  72328 forum posts Wales4 Constructive Critique Points
6 Aug 2008 - 9:46 AM

Your not far wrong there Hench, kinda puts you off when you post something new or differant to be ignored in place of yet another **** landscape or bloody robin.

MediumSizeUnavailable

you should write Pete PMs, claiming you are being bullied and intimidated. Instant results guaranteed Wink

It was interesting to see the site's overstressed reaction. That so often threads are being started on the click and clique topic should tell them that something is wrong. Instead, they now just point their arrows at the messengers, claim it's just a few complainers (could be right... most probably left a long time ago or never even joined in the first place because of this) and wind-ups, and close the threads instead.

Can't beat 'm... join 'm.

Pete
Pete Site Moderator 1318739 forum postsPete vcard ePz Advertiser England96 Constructive Critique Points
6 Aug 2008 - 9:49 AM

So here we go again.
Don't just attack people who are enjoying their area of the site do something about your area. If it's not working suggest ways we can improve your area. We do listen...we don't always have time/experience/confidence/desire to implement them but we do, as you've seen over the years implement as much as we can.

Henchard
Henchard  92744 forum posts United Kingdom1 Constructive Critique Points
6 Aug 2008 - 9:50 AM

Ah 'the management' has appeared; good morning Pete. With an interesting comment


Quote: the abuse you like to throw

Can I ask where I have thrown any abuse? Perhaps you could point me to it? I have never posted abuse about anyone nor would I do so. I have stated my opinion and will use this blog to do so. That after all is the purpose of a blog.

You may not like what I say but hopefully you will defend my right to say it because at present the comments in this blog are MY OPINION. They are not aimed at anyone in particular, they are my observations. You can agree or disagree. If it makes one person think hard about their photography it will have succeeded.

Quote:
Turn you negative energy into something positive John.

This got added later.

Well that was the purpose of this blog to see if it sparked any interest or am I just a lone voice swimming against the tide. Seems like it has sparked interest. Please note I do not want it become a slanging match, nor despite what Pete might think am I trying to stir it. I am just trying to put MY views.

Last Modified By Henchard at 6 Aug 2008 - 9:56 AM
MediumSizeUnavailable

No Pete, what's happening is that a group of people are using the pool table as a darts board... but I guess they are just enjoying 'their area'

Last Modified By MediumSizeUnavailable at 6 Aug 2008 - 9:55 AM
Pete
Pete Site Moderator 1318739 forum postsPete vcard ePz Advertiser England96 Constructive Critique Points
6 Aug 2008 - 10:07 AM


Quote: No Pete, what's happening is that a group of people are using the pool table as a darts board... but I guess they are just enjoying 'their area'

Not really, they are holding the pool cue in a different place than a pro and complementing each other, even when they missed the pocket or, sometimes, ball.
What's wrong as I've said before is that the voting system isn't fair if you view it on the surface and it probably never can be in a community site like this. It's down as our next major EPZ upgrade.

Quote: Can I ask where I have thrown any abuse?

I refer to you as general (as in the, we hate click groups section) and abuse may be the wrong word, but quickest to think out.

Quote: I just a lone voice swimming against the tide. Seems like it has sparked interest

No you know you're not, equally there are a majority who are happy with how things are and just get fed up of this kind of (moaning - quick word) It's all been discussed so much that I don't see the point. We know you are not happy, we know a few others aren't. We do want to get things right but no one has come up with the ideal solution to do an automatic coded version of what you could do yourself if you followed the advice I gave earlier. We are working on it though!

Edit and I hope it's not coming across as me wanting a slanging match either. I just putting across the "management" view

Last Modified By Pete at 6 Aug 2008 - 10:15 AM
conrad
conrad  1010877 forum posts116 Constructive Critique Points
6 Aug 2008 - 11:16 AM

If you're looking for a "quality only" site, then you're in the wrong place. There is quality to be found, both in images and in critique, but not everything comes under that heading. I quite like Pete's comparison with a pub, where everyone does just what he likes. If you prefer a gentleman's club to a pub, then again, you're in the wrong place.

If, however, you're able to tolerate other people's preferences, and are able to let them enjoy what they enjoy without openly disapproving of that, then I for one would really welcome it if you decided to stick around.

I favour the "Live and let live" approach. Why not let people use the site in their own way (within the boundaries of the T&Cs, of course) - and do the same yourself. If you only want to see quality, or the work of a certain kind of member, then letting your e2 membership lapse is not wise, because with your Favourite Photographers page you can pretty much determine yourself what you see on here.

You've been here for over three years, and with the growth of the site I can imagine that you feel some of the phenomena you mention are undesirable. I, too, would prefer it if every photo received serious, helpful critique, but it just so happens that many people are somehow not able or willing to give that, and there are just too many photos uploaded to receive enough attention. The logical result is that those with a large circle of friends on here and those who produce images with stunning-looking thumbnails get the most attention. I don't think that can be helped, to be honest.

And it's impossible for Pete to keep everybody with strong likes and dislikes happy - keeping everybody happy is only possible if there is a good degree of tolerance on all sides.

fotodayz
fotodayz  6179 forum posts United Kingdom1 Constructive Critique Points
6 Aug 2008 - 12:27 PM

hear hear - very revealing in lots of ways! Smile

MediumSizeUnavailable

I openly disapprove with Conrad's comment

Henchard
Henchard  92744 forum posts United Kingdom1 Constructive Critique Points
6 Aug 2008 - 7:36 PM

Whoa, the response to this has been huge. I just thought my comments would sit in a quiet corner of my little bit of epz and only be found by those who 'came looking'.

It wasn't my intention to open up the whole previous forum thread. Just merely give MY opinion. I am not criticising anyone. And for the record I think Pete has an unenviable position trying to satisfy all of the people all of the time. Also for the record I am not whining or moaning; just saying that is how it seems to me.

Pete has suggested that I should perhaps contribute in a more positive way (although to be fair I think joining E2, answering forum questions and generally trying not to be too much of a pain is reasonably positive) so I will try to write more in these blogs that covers some of the more 'difficult' areas of photography and (from time to time) epz. As I said you might not like what I say; in which case don't read my blogs - but if you want to read something with a bit more of a polemic slant well drop by again sometime.

What has been surprising is the number of people who have emailed me (all positive reactions so far) rather than use the p.m. system because they don't want their comments monitored - an interesting reaction.

Anyway I'm off to Ireland for a week listening to music and drinking Guinness so apologies in advance if I don't add further to this for a while.

Pete
Pete Site Moderator 1318739 forum postsPete vcard ePz Advertiser England96 Constructive Critique Points
6 Aug 2008 - 8:49 PM

Thanks for your addition John

Quote: What has been surprising is the number of people who have emailed me (all positive reactions so far) rather than use the p.m. system because they don't want their comments monitored - an interesting reaction

I'd just like to say that we don't monitor PMs, we get far too many to do that. We have only been asked to look at specific incidents on a couple of occasions.

Boyd
Boyd  1111213 forum posts Wales11 Constructive Critique Points
6 Aug 2008 - 9:25 PM


Quote: What has been surprising is the number of people who have emailed me (all positive reactions so far) rather than use the p.m. system because they don't want their comments monitored - an interesting reaction.

...and to be fair it does say in your About Henchard section


Quote: If you want to contact me I suggest that you do so via my website as I shan't be coming here so regularly in future.

xstevex
xstevex  689 forum posts England1 Constructive Critique Points
6 Aug 2008 - 9:42 PM

hench i agree if you,
criticize some peoples images dont they throw a wobbly and come up with excuses ive some friends that do not use the site anymore as its very clickie IE some people get loads of clicks no matter what they put in as a image and then if the image does not get loads of clicks they take it off and say sorry to those that have already voted on it.
WHY DO THIS ?

FLT
FLT  5 United Kingdom
18 May 2009 - 10:49 AM

I totally agree with this man. I'm no professional but i do try my hardest and to see i get out voted by a bland photo of duck demoralises me some what. I scan through some of the photos on here and see some of the votes going into the 40's for a photo my Nan could of took and I think to myself, what am i doing wrong! There is some awesome talent on here and they deserve many votes and comments because, like me, when your out there and doing what you love the most it's in the back of your mind to take the best photo you possibly can and show it off on here or on a similar web site but to get more or less un noticed, well, that sucks.. I' going to let my membership laps as well....

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