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Critique or not ?


dianah 14 24.5k 4 United Kingdom
21 May 2010 11:55AM

Quote:What a refreshing attitude Dianah... many people seem to just want a 'nice pic'comment and get offended if you offer anything more cutting.

Feedback does not have to be and should not be "cutting". The idea is to give advice on how something might be done differently to improve the image. Personally, I have no problem with anyone giving feedback when it's done properly and welcome it.



'Cutting' isn't a word that I would use. Constructive critique is something that should always be welcomed..anything constructive has to be positive by way of its definition! Unfortunately there will always be people that might take constructive critique as cutting and if that is the case would probably not be looking for help or advice in the first place or maybe shouldn't be looking for it in the first place.

What is 'cutting' to one person is not to another..it just depends on the individual and also how the opinion is worded. This will always be a problem with just the written word . My advice is..if you think that somebody's criticism is cutting then take time out and re read again. More often than not it is just an unfortunate way of putting something or maybe it is just a bad day !!Smile

There are always people to turn to if you think that you are being treated unfairly anyway so there should be no problem. Cutting comments didn't even enter my head when I started this thread..there is nearly always something positive to be found in all views.
Di
nishad1994 11 264 Oman
21 May 2010 12:12PM

Quote:..there is nearly always something positive to be found in all views.


Dianah ... you sound just like my mom ... and I really appreciate it !! Smile This is the same thing my mom keeps telling me when I am in a bad mood Smile

As for constructive critiques -- I always take it as an useful suggestion. I know there a lot of people who know a lot more than me and are here to help. Smile

Nishad
Tooth 16 5.8k 227 Ireland
21 May 2010 12:16PM

Quote:Thanks Stephen. So if you put forward a photo for a critique ,is it mainly for the Critique Team ?


Absolutely not Diana, and I hope you didn't take it up that way.The team is here and we are committed to providing detailed critiques on photos as they are ticked for it. My point was that there are quite a few other members who spend a considerable amount of their own time in the critique gallery giving detailed critiques, and that is wonderful and the way it should be, and they probably don't get thanked enough for it.

The point was made from the inception of the critique team that critiquing was for everybody and the more the merrier - the team are there to ensure that everything gets covered, and also to deal with behind-the scenes stuff, and approiving/denying nominations for constructive critique.

To take the point further, ideally every photo on the site should be up for critique, but not everybody wants that. However, if a photo is marked for critique, then the more and more varied inputs the better, different contributors can see things from diifferent viewpoints.


Quote:This is such a nice thread. I enjoyed reading it. Its sometimes so boring to read all negative feedback that one feels so refreshed after reading such a positive thread.


Quite agree Smile

Stephen
dianah 14 24.5k 4 United Kingdom
21 May 2010 12:40PM

Quote:..there is nearly always something positive to be found in all views.

Dianah ... you sound just like my mom ... and I really appreciate it !! Smile This is the same thing my mom keeps telling me when I am in a bad mood Smile

As for constructive critiques -- I always take it as an useful suggestion. I know there a lot of people who know a lot more than me and are here to help. Smile

Nishad


I had a quick look Nishad to see how old you were Smile..I suspect, unfortunately, I am probably more like your grandma !!!!Smile

Thanks Stephen, for that explanation..it is all a great deal clearer now and I will spend alot more time looking at the photos that are up for critique although I still have an enormous amount to learn about technique myself. Hopefully the more I read, the more I will absorb.
I have a feeling that I will be using EPZ in rather a different way now..a far more positive way hopefully but without losing touch with all those members that have given me so much over the past three years. I still think it would be hugely advantageous to amateur photographers like myself to somehow plug the Critique section in someway so that it caught the attention somehow..goodness knows how that could be done on here as I know nothing about websites, I am a teacher of the blackboard era Wink.I just feel that there are many who don't realise its significance and pass it by.
Di.
pamelajean Plus
15 1.6k 2227 United Kingdom
21 May 2010 1:58PM
Firstly, thankyou for your kind words, Dianah, and for starting such an informative thread.
I know I am biased, but I find the Critique Gallery to be one of the best features of this site. My interest began when I myself wanted to learn more, and I am still finding it a source for learning, just by reading with others have to say.
I hope I speak for the rest of the team (see who they are under "ePHOTOzine>The Team", menu at top of page) when I say that our satisfaction comes from helping others, and it's gratifying to hear from someone like yourself who has benefited from advice given.
Pamela.
dianah 14 24.5k 4 United Kingdom
21 May 2010 4:33PM
Thanks Pamela. It is really interesting to see who everybody is on the Critique Team in particular and their individual interests as well.
Think that might be my Friday evening taken up by looking at all the portfolios..I feel I am just beginning on EPZ all over again, it is really exciting ! Smile
Di
Carabosse 18 41.6k 270 England
21 May 2010 7:01PM
Hi Diana. It's nice to see a positive thread, like this, on the forum. It's good you have starting posting photos in the Critique Gallery. Most people, I am guessing, are already familiar with the critique guidelines but, if not, these can be found here .

Just to reinforce what Stephen has said above: critique is for everyone to participate in. We have seen helpful critiques made by, just for example, Junior members. So as well as receiving critique, you can help the critique effort by giving it. Perhaps on subjects in which you specialise, just to begin with, and then more widely as you become more confident about giving critique.

Thanks for starting this topic. Smile
JJGEE 16 7.9k 18 England
21 May 2010 7:17PM
Must admit I do not visit the critique section, perhaps I / we should all make more effort ! !

How about right now, I will make a start on the latest upload, whatever it may be ! ( And I have not looked in advance )
dianah 14 24.5k 4 United Kingdom
21 May 2010 7:48PM
Fantastic idea Jeff..this could snowball !!!! I will do the second one in about ten minutes . Anybody else available to join in ? How exciting ! Smile
Di
Psycoco 11 8 Australia
23 May 2010 10:09AM
I find the critique gallery the most fascinating on the whole site. It's what I look at the most and have learnt so much just by reaing your comments.
I find I'm pulling the photos apart myself before reading the comments, and guess what? I am often in agreement with some of you comments.
I love it so keep them coming!
dianah 14 24.5k 4 United Kingdom
23 May 2010 1:59PM
Anyone got any ideas ?

The critique gallery certainly seems to be the most informative and helpful place to go if you really want to improve and learn. Looking at some of the images it is a shame that there are so few comments which isn't an incentive for it to be used continuously .

This is by no means a criticism of the people who are on the Critique Team..I think it is brilliant that anybody gives up their time to give so much advice, even to a few.

I just wondered if there was a way to encourage others to help out too..even if it is just on the odd occasion. I am happy to do this but feel totally lacking in expertise so I know that my help is very limited and basic. This is fine for a real beginner but not much help to those have reached a higher standard.

I would really love to see this take off !
DRicherby 12 269 726 United Kingdom
23 May 2010 2:52PM
I'm not sure what we can do to encourage more people to speak up in the critique gallery but I think it would be a great thing too.

If anyone does see a photo in the critique gallery that they have an opinion on, please do say something! Even a complete beginner might spot things that have been missed by those who are more experienced so everyone has the ability to contribute something. It doesn't have to be highly technical or use big words. To be honest, it doesn't even have to be critique -- if you like a photo and want to know how it was taken, feel free to ask and get a discussion going. It certainly doesn't matter if you suggest something that people disagree with or that is technically impossible or very difficult. People in the critique gallery tend to be polite and helpful about that kind of thing and you might get some good advice back. Smile

Dave.
Carabosse 18 41.6k 270 England
23 May 2010 5:12PM
The frequent problem for anyone trying to offer critique is the lack of useful information provided by the poster of the photo. The Critique Gallery has been going for the best part of 4 years and, whilst it has improved beyond recognition, in that time, this is a nut yet to be cracked.

And no, I don't mean technical details... helpful as it might be to have those, they are not at the heart of the matter. If I can quote from the guidelines:


Quote:Briefly try to point out what you were trying to achieve, and indicate any areas where you feel there is room for improvement.


It is very rare that this sort of information is present. The Critique Gallery is essentially a Help Gallery, but if people won't help themselves by doing the above then it becomes, to some degree, a matter of mind-reading!
dianah 14 24.5k 4 United Kingdom
23 May 2010 7:51PM
Thanks Carabosse and I know that it is all there for everyone to read..it really couldn't be clearer!
I know how busy people are and some don't stop to read information just from lack of time.

Maybe the very first paragraph should include the fact that if critique and advice is required and presumably it is.. then it is essential that all, or at least some, of the following information is given to help the person who is trying to give advice. People generally read at least the first paragraph ! Wink

Replies from the member who posted the image is helpful as well..there could be further questions that are needed to be asked and it is also a silent thank you for the time that person has spent trying to give advice..an encouragement that everybody needs for something to flourish !
Di
roxpix 17 2.2k 11 Scotland
24 May 2010 8:06AM

Quote:The frequent problem for anyone trying to offer critique is the lack of useful information provided by the poster of the photo. The Critique Gallery has been going for the best part of 4 years and, whilst it has improved beyond recognition, in that time, this is a nut yet to be cracked.

And no, I don't mean technical details... helpful as it might be to have those, they are not at the heart of the matter. If I can quote from the guidelines:

Briefly try to point out what you were trying to achieve, and indicate any areas where you feel there is room for improvement.

It is very rare that this sort of information is present. The Critique Gallery is essentially a Help Gallery, but if people won't help themselves by doing the above then it becomes, to some degree, a matter of mind-reading!



CB you'll be more painfully aware of this than I & I'll bet it's been raised numerous times (I know I have & got a reply saying its with Web Dev team)
To actually get the guidlines from the upload page is (while straightforward) not prominant
As you say members are generally not following the guidlines for providing information & to be honest they really cant be blamed

From the Upload Photo page users needs an additional three Pages/pop-ups to display the guidlines of information (first on the 'i' then the FAQs then to the 9th point of the 10 FAQ's

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