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Did most intelligent people vote to remain in the EU?


ChrisV 15 2.3k 26 United Kingdom
7 Feb 2017 11:21AM

Quote:Well Garth, I respectfully disagree with you. Given the Labour Party's current problems with anti-semitism and Jezza's failure to get to grips with it I don't think it's just the Tories and UKIP who have a problem with racism!


I think a lot of the [quite legitimate] anti-Zionist sentiment in the Labour Party has very deliberately been conflated with anti-semitism. Lots of Jews are firmly opposed to Israel's illegal settlements and poor treatment of Palestinians in its power. That's an explicitly political stance and as such has very little to do with religion, much less race. That's not to say there might not be the odd bigot in the organisation, but widespread? I think not.
Ross_D 7 841 1 United Kingdom
7 Feb 2017 1:08PM


Quote:The problem I have with that is that the referendum was never actually binding in the first place


Must confess I've never seen the proof that the referendum was not legally binding. However, the 2015 Conservative Manifesto clearly stated (quote): "We will honour the result of the referendum, whatever the outcome" ..... page 73 if your interested. That is just one of many references to the referendum in their manifesto.

It could therefore be argued that since the Conservatives were democratically elected with a majority then they have a legimate right to carry out their manifesto promise (which makes a change for any government to stick to it's promises!!)

Also interesting is the fact that no 'Remainers' queried or questioned this 2015 manifesto statement or held up a red flag and said 'you can't do that ' (presumably because they assumed the 'Remain' vote would prevail ).


Carabosse 18 41.8k 270 England
7 Feb 2017 1:20PM
Oh well, it looks like the UK will be riding high over the next 3 decades - allegedly! Wink

Article
JackAllTog Plus
12 6.3k 58 United Kingdom
7 Feb 2017 1:24PM
I don't think either side particularly won in the intelligent arguments, and there certainly does not seem to be a clear cut all encompassing benefit either one way for the other.

I do think Europe had become associated with more issues that opportunities and did not publicise a clear direction do resolve those issues. The bureaucrats that seem never to lose are still being well paid whilst many regular people seem to see little direct benefit. Government are passing more and more issues down to local areas to resolve with limited budgets. As such the growth of Europe became, i think, a threat for those already in the UK but not privileged enough to be independently financially insulated from the perceived effects of an open Europe.
I think quite a few people believe that a low cost workforce benefits the UK, but actually just because business asks for this its not always intelligent to just agree with 'smart' business looking to reduce operational costs.
If your priorities are actually also for the next generation then longer term plans for schools, healthcare, housing and pensions are very important.
Perhaps in 20 years when robots do 20% of the jobs being done now and we need less people we will have to again consider job sharing, enforced early retirement or longer in education. Funding the short term needs of more cheap labour won't generate enough future income tax to pay for this delayed spend.

Brexit is clearly a question that does not have a single clear objective answer available and so to tear ourselves apart into blaming the other camp is never going to move us forward to address actual issues.

In 5 years time will you be still blaming the other side - or will you be helping make the best of what ever the current situation becomes?



ChrisV 15 2.3k 26 United Kingdom
7 Feb 2017 2:48PM
Fabio made a good comment over the page on the 'intelligence' issue - educational attainment does not necessarily indicate intelligence, it's probably [unfortunately now more so than ever] more of a clear indicator of the affluence of a person's background.

That point is I think absolutely critical to an understanding of what's going on, both with Brexit and with the election of Trump on the other side of the pond. Those in comfort [the 'liberal elite' we hear so much of] are more likely to be satisfied with the status quo. In the meanwhile, those at the lower end have seen an erosion of their living standards and have a growing feeling that society and politicians [the establishment] are not working for them.

In the US the Clintons are the embodiment of the establishment and are widely seen as corrupt and self-serving. Anything to kick the establishment and shake things up is seen as 'taking back control' in a desperate bid to rid the upper echelons of state of its corruption and complacency.

The same thing comes into play in Britain and in our case many see the EU as unresponsive, unaccountable and essentially a gravy train for those involved in its organisation. There is more than a grain of truth in all of this. Those in power have become complacent - the vast majority are feeling 'left behind' because they have been - they have [and continue to] bear the burden of the financial crash. They see a system which has continued to reward those responsible for the mismanagement of the economy while they suffer the consequences.

The 'alternative truths' also play into this narrative. Our media has become so insulated, so unreflective of the broader bread and butter concerns of the masses, that it is no longer to be trusted. Even its concerns of liberalities in terms of race, religion and sexuality are treated with suspicion, because they are the primary concerns of the comfortably off while the everyday sufferings of the majority are secondary and marginalised.

So we have the celebration of the rebel, the politically incorrect in all their guises - anyone - anyone - who will put two fingers up to the establishment.

It's a very dangerous path - and it does disguise as a legitimate alternative, particularly when the mainstream media has demonised genuinely progressive alternatives [who unfortunately for them also tend to be associated with 'liberal values' because they championed them before they became mainstream.

We are in interesting times - in the Chinese sense.
IanYorke 8 31 United Kingdom
7 Feb 2017 2:51PM
Just a few general comments.
Jean Monet, father of Europe allegedly stated in his 1952 statement of belief:
“Europe’s nations should be guided towards the super-state without their people understanding what is happening. This can be accomplished by successive steps each disguised as having an economic purpose, but which will eventually and irreversibly lead to federation.”

Now there is much debate as to whether this is fact and given it was 63 years ago proof either way is not likely. We can however see if actions match the statement.

So whether Jean Monet’s quote is correct or not, history shows that the principals he espoused have been followed. You only have to ask why a free trade area needs a national flag, President, and national anthem?
Also, the reason that free movement is sacrosanct when a simple work permit system for EU citizens would work perfectly well for free trade is that Free Movement is a requirement for any country / super state.

The other question most remainers find hard to answer is that dual citizenship is a big step to take for anyone, so when was the referendum on becoming UK and EU nationals, and therefore subject to EU law?

As the OP raised the issue of lack of education it is perhaps appropriate that posters give some idea of their background. I have a MSc in Chemistry, worked in China for 20 years, and conducted business all over the world – so I hope that does not classify me as a “little Englander”. Grin

As an aside it is enlightening to see how others view the debate here in the UK and USA with Trump.
I have lectured China on their lack of democracy for 20 years. Now it is payback time because they say I (UK/USA) am all in favour of democracy EXCEPT when it produces the wrong result. As my friends and colleagues have pointed out had the UK Government adopted the Chinese voting system there would have been no problem. There would have been only a REMAIN checkbox on the ballot paper – job done!

Ian


Quote:My sense is that a lot of people voted on emotion rather than calculation.

Two of my good friends voted leave and I can't get a clearly articulated rationale for doing so. One has quoted the mantra 'take back control', but I fear a lot of that is based on the myths that have been propagated [or at best largely unchallenged] by the media for the last few decades.

For instance we're repeatedly told that most law for that period of time has come out of the EU. It is of course a bit of a sleight of hand that the vast majority of that is more regulation than anything in the criminal code. [Mostly to facilitate the single market]. Even then much of that is based on complete misapprehension.

This was perfectly illustrated the other night by a woman in the Question Time audience who was venting her frustration at 'straight bananas' in the supermarkets. She could perhaps be forgiven [and it still wasn't corrected] for thinking that sort of thing was EU edict. In fact British supermarkets make up their own rules on that sort of thing and don't need any assistance whatever from the EU in making up the most absurd and restrictive specifications for the produce they are prepared to put on their shelves.

The EU has been such a whipping boy for every perceived woe, it isn't really surprising a lot of resentment has added to the many real faults that were at its door. Someone at my local supermarket fish counter assured me the price of fish [his haddock and my swordfish] would be cheaper 'once we get all our fishing territory back'. Aside from the advisability of not holding your breath waiting for prices to fall, it's also harking back to a time when we had far more than our fair share of territorial waters. If that's calculated on land mass, or even on the proportion of coastline to sea area, we're still to the good and that is far from likely to improve post-Brexit. To say that most voters did not concern themselves with such niceties is a bit of an understatement. The idea has been so unchallenged for so long most people 'know' it's the case anyway...

Anyone reading this will probably have little doubt I think leaving is a bit of a disaster. I will however say, the case needed to be better made by the remain side and countering lies with other lies was always a bad idea. I have llittle time for those who now suggest [as some of Labour's old Blairites seem keen] it's OK to ignore or try to overturn what is a clear democratic mandate.

We have to make the best of the course we're now set on.





lobsterboy Plus
17 15.0k 13 United Kingdom
7 Feb 2017 3:08PM

Quote:This was perfectly illustrated the other night by a woman in the Question Time audience who was venting her frustration at 'straight bananas' in the supermarkets.


Even if it was EU law, I never understood why people would get upset by that. What does it matter if a banana is straight or bent ? How dull must your life be if you care about that.
collywobles 17 4.1k 10 United Kingdom
7 Feb 2017 4:13PM

Quote:Even if it was EU law, I never understood why people would get upset by that. What does it matter if a banana is straight or bent ? How dull must your life be if you care about that.


Ah but straight Cucumbers are far more important......Smile
petebfrance 9 3.1k France
7 Feb 2017 4:40PM
Straight croissants are easier to cut in half horizontally and fill with jam and cream, so I think that there should be a new EU regulation banning curly croissants. More more important than the shape of bananas in my opinion. Besides, a bendy banana would likely be better for making banana and ice-cream thingies (with chololate sauce) as it would follow the shape of the plate or dish.
Cephus 17 2.7k England
7 Feb 2017 4:56PM
I voted to leave, but then I don't pretend to be intelligent. TongueTongueTongue
chris.maddock 20 3.7k United Kingdom
7 Feb 2017 4:56PM

Quote:Straight croissants are easier to cut in half horizontally and fill with jam and cream, so I think that there should be a new EU regulation banning curly croissants. More more important than the shape of bananas in my opinion. Besides, a bendy banana would likely be better for making banana and ice-cream thingies (with chololate sauce) as it would follow the shape of the plate or dish.


But if the bakers are forced to make straight croissants, then it won't be possible to slice one horizontally and fit a bendy banana inside Wink
bluesandtwos 12 528 1 England
7 Feb 2017 4:56PM
Once we are fimally free of the shackles will we be able to call sprouts, sprouts as opposed to...........Smile
petebfrance 9 3.1k France
7 Feb 2017 5:08PM

Quote:
Quote:Straight croissants are easier to cut in half horizontally and fill with jam and cream, so I think that there should be a new EU regulation banning curly croissants. More more important than the shape of bananas in my opinion. Besides, a bendy banana would likely be better for making banana and ice-cream thingies (with chololate sauce) as it would follow the shape of the plate or dish.


But if the bakers are forced to make straight croissants, then it won't be possible to slice one horizontally and fit a bendy banana inside Wink



Rats! I thought it was so simple. Now we'll now have to set up an executive committee to discuss the issuesGrin
Fma7 6 1.1k United Kingdom
7 Feb 2017 5:58PM

Quote:Two of my good friends voted leave and I can't get a clearly articulated rationale for doing so


Funny how all the remainers have these imaginary friends/acquaintances who are much less sophisticated than they are, I bet they've never been to a dinner party, let alone an artisan bakery.

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Here's some brackets to use if anyone wants them.
Carabosse 18 41.8k 270 England
7 Feb 2017 6:45PM
I love debates which amount to whether to rearrange the deck chairs on the Titanic! Tongue

The real question was, should we get into the lifeboats BEFORE or AFTER the ship hits the looming iceberg?

Actually that would have been a better question to put on the referendum ballot paper. Smile

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