[quote]But I don't consider that I've failed (well, not all the time anyway[/quote] I'd say exactly the same about myself :) I'd also say that it is through other people's (as you'd see it) mistaken impression that you learn how to hone your craft so that you they don't get a mistaken impression. Robert Capa's remark that if your picture is not good, it is because you are too far away is the kernel of it to me. If you are trying to show the beauty of a leaf to your viewer, photograph just the leaf. If that is a little bland or uninteresting in itself, add only what is necessary to draw attention to the beauty that you see. Most of the memorable images that live on say one thing directly and the place or circumstances are either referred to in the picture or don't matter. KeithH mentions the shooting of the Vietcong prisoner. That lives on not as a memento of the Vietnam war or the race of the man being shot or the 60s but as a straightforward statement of the brutality of war, a helpless man being killed. The fact that it has been misinterpreted and misunderstood (I'm not sure it has) does not alter what it ultimately says. This is plainly war and it is plainly dirty and brutal. We all know that but this picture stands as a symbol of that brutality, it says it better than any words or talking up could ever do.

Quote:But I don't consider that I've failed (well, not all the time anyway


I'd say exactly the same about myself I'd also say that it is through other people's (as you'd see it) mistaken impression that you learn how to hone your craft so that you they don't get a mistaken impression.

Robert Capa's remark that if your picture is not good, it is because you are too far away is the kernel of it to me. If you are trying to show the beauty of a leaf to your viewer, photograph just the leaf. If that is a little bland or uninteresting in itself, add only what is necessary to draw attention to the beauty that you see. Most of the memorable images that live on say one thing directly and the place or circumstances are either referred to in the picture or don't matter.

KeithH mentions the shooting of the Vietcong prisoner. That lives on not as a memento of the Vietnam war or the race of the man being shot or the 60s but as a straightforward statement of the brutality of war, a helpless man being killed. The fact that it has been misinterpreted and misunderstood (I'm not sure it has) does not alter what it ultimately says. This is plainly war and it is plainly dirty and brutal. We all know that but this picture stands as a symbol of that brutality, it says it better than any words or talking up could ever do.

Reminds me, I sat and watch a program about Don McCullin on sky last night, using its Iplayer thingy. http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b036j3fp/imagine..._Summer_2013_McCullin/

Reminds me, I sat and watch a program about Don McCullin on sky last night, using its Iplayer thingy.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b036j3fp/imagine..._Summer_2013_McCullin/

[quote]We all know that but this picture stands as a symbol of that brutality, it says it better than any words or talking up could ever do.[/quote] One of many, although I know nothing about the victim. I'm afraid it doesn't move me. I find images of children and civilians being terrorised say far more about war than the Capa. If I were to pick one image that sums up mismanagement of the planet and its people by dictators and war, I'd choose Don McCullin's starving, albino Biafran boy, heartbreakingly excluded and holding an empty food tin. Not exactly a war image, but it shows the wicked outcome of cruelty and greed. Or the Tom Stoddard Sarajevo images. Images that evoke an emotional reaction. But so many images are taken of war, obviously a few of them are going to be gems. Far from the majority though I'd assume (especially under the circumstances). Hey, listen to me, Mrs Comfortable Suburbia. :D

Quote:We all know that but this picture stands as a symbol of that brutality, it says it better than any words or talking up could ever do.
One of many, although I know nothing about the victim. I'm afraid it doesn't move me.

I find images of children and civilians being terrorised say far more about war than the Capa. If I were to pick one image that sums up mismanagement of the planet and its people by dictators and war, I'd choose Don McCullin's starving, albino Biafran boy, heartbreakingly excluded and holding an empty food tin. Not exactly a war image, but it shows the wicked outcome of cruelty and greed. Or the Tom Stoddard Sarajevo images. Images that evoke an emotional reaction.

But so many images are taken of war, obviously a few of them are going to be gems. Far from the majority though I'd assume (especially under the circumstances). Hey, listen to me, Mrs Comfortable Suburbia.

[quote]Evaluate how? For what reason?[/quote] I view them with some considerable detachedness, is all. I'm not easily swayed by the trouble I took to take them, so I arrive at a decision about whether I like them or not with the same speed as if I were viewing the pictures of a stranger. I wish that made me great, but I know otherwise -- perhaps it stems from years of being fairly mercenary about photography. For a Muppet I sell a lot of pictures, but I know that this in itself is meaningless, so I guess I'm looking for something that stands out from the many thousands of photos I've taken. It's a constant editing process.

Quote:Evaluate how? For what reason?


I view them with some considerable detachedness, is all. I'm not easily swayed by the trouble I took to take them, so I arrive at a decision about whether I like them or not with the same speed as if I were viewing the pictures of a stranger. I wish that made me great, but I know otherwise -- perhaps it stems from years of being fairly mercenary about photography. For a Muppet I sell a lot of pictures, but I know that this in itself is meaningless, so I guess I'm looking for something that stands out from the many thousands of photos I've taken. It's a constant editing process.

[quote]Or the Tom Stoddard Sarajevo images. Images that evoke an emotional reaction.[/quote] I was with Tom in Zagreb on the way to Sarajevo the day or so before he took those pictures. He's a great photographer, always very thoughtful. He was quite badly injured but recovered to work again. Some of his stuff from the Lebanon actually served to change things a bit in that war. I don't think selling pictures is easily done by a muppet, Glennh. They must have sopmething about them, otherwise why would the buyer just not get free stiuff wherever he could?

Quote:Or the Tom Stoddard Sarajevo images. Images that evoke an emotional reaction.


I was with Tom in Zagreb on the way to Sarajevo the day or so before he took those pictures. He's a great photographer, always very thoughtful. He was quite badly injured but recovered to work again. Some of his stuff from the Lebanon actually served to change things a bit in that war.

I don't think selling pictures is easily done by a muppet, Glennh. They must have sopmething about them, otherwise why would the buyer just not get free stiuff wherever he could?

There is one well known picture, can`t remember what it is called or the photographers name, the picture was of a child dying from hunger or thirst, a few months later the photographer committed suicide. Lol found it, I would love to know if that child lived. http://www.fanpop.com/clubs/photography/articles/2845/title/kevin-carter-consequences-photojournalism

There is one well known picture, can`t remember what it is called or the photographers name, the picture was of a child dying from hunger or thirst, a few months later the photographer committed suicide.

Lol found it, I would love to know if that child lived.

http://www.fanpop.com/clubs/photography/articles/2845/title/kevin-carter-consequences-photojournalism

Look in 'Hotshoe' photo magazine - an arty mag for photography and you will see what many of us 'ordinary' snappers would reject as a poor attempt poorly executed, but they are supposedly incisive and intuitive or something like that. I am an admirer of some of the above mentioned photographers and take the point that they may be dated now but they can be seen in their context to have made a statement or a difference. I still admire Ansell Adams for his fine technique and his dedication to mood and detail, but look at Hotshoe and he is nothing less than a genius.

Look in 'Hotshoe' photo magazine - an arty mag for photography and you will see what many of us 'ordinary' snappers would reject as a poor attempt poorly executed, but they are supposedly incisive and intuitive or something like that. I am an admirer of some of the above mentioned photographers and take the point that they may be dated now but they can be seen in their context to have made a statement or a difference. I still admire Ansell Adams for his fine technique and his dedication to mood and detail, but look at Hotshoe and he is nothing less than a genius.

[quote] many of us 'ordinary' snappers would reject as a poor attempt poorly executed[/quote] That may be the very thing that makes us ordinary.

Quote: many of us 'ordinary' snappers would reject as a poor attempt poorly executed


That may be the very thing that makes us ordinary.

[quote]Adams' photo of the execution of the Vietcong prisoner became one of the most misunderstood and misrepresented in photographic history.[/quote] That's what I alluded to earlier in the thread Keith, the "victim"was a notorious Guirilla fighter, the "executioner"became a good friend of Adams. That's not how I read it when I first saw it tho (I can't believe I was 4 when I saw it, tho probably saw it towards the end of the Vietnam war). What made it strong IMO was that the victim looked meak, and the executioner looked cold and overbearing. But Himler looked meak and a bit of a loser too.

Quote:Adams' photo of the execution of the Vietcong prisoner became one of the most misunderstood and misrepresented in photographic history.


That's what I alluded to earlier in the thread Keith, the "victim"was a notorious Guirilla fighter, the "executioner"became a good friend of Adams.

That's not how I read it when I first saw it tho (I can't believe I was 4 when I saw it, tho probably saw it towards the end of the Vietnam war).

What made it strong IMO was that the victim looked meak, and the executioner looked cold and overbearing.

But Himler looked meak and a bit of a loser too.

This was interesting, Steve McCurry shoots with the very last roll of Kodachrome 64, after shooting off a few frames in New York he then decides to visit India to use the rest of the roll :) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUL6MBVKVLI

This was interesting, Steve McCurry shoots with the very last roll of Kodachrome 64, after shooting off a few frames in New York he then decides to visit India to use the rest of the roll

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUL6MBVKVLI

[quote]But Himler looked meak and a bit of a loser too.[/quote] Do you mean Himmler or Hitler looked meek? Neither of them were 'a bit of a loser', they were both monumental losers.

Quote:But Himler looked meak and a bit of a loser too.


Do you mean Himmler or Hitler looked meek? Neither of them were 'a bit of a loser', they were both monumental losers.

Initially Hitler and Himmler were winners - until they started to believe their own propaganda!

Initially Hitler and Himmler were winners - until they started to believe their own propaganda!

[quote]Initially Hitler and Himmler were winners - until they started to believe their own propaganda![/quote] Himmler was a bankrupt chicken farmer, Hitler was a dropout in Vienna.

Quote:Initially Hitler and Himmler were winners - until they started to believe their own propaganda!


Himmler was a bankrupt chicken farmer, Hitler was a dropout in Vienna.

[quote]Initially Hitler and Himmler were winners - until they started to believe their own propaganda! Himmler was a bankrupt chicken farmer, Hitler was a dropout in Vienna.[/quote] Unfortunately, Hitler then discovered that he was a good orator and knew what the disgruntled ex-WWI soldiers wanted to hear.

Quote:Initially Hitler and Himmler were winners - until they started to believe their own propaganda!

Himmler was a bankrupt chicken farmer, Hitler was a dropout in Vienna.


Unfortunately, Hitler then discovered that he was a good orator and knew what the disgruntled ex-WWI soldiers wanted to hear.

Yep, not disputing that, but the freightening bit it only started as a very small marginal party and used the political uncertaintly of the time / hyper infltion and a feeling of injustice (war reparations) to seize power from within a coalition.

Yep, not disputing that, but the freightening bit it only started as a very small marginal party and used the political uncertaintly of the time / hyper infltion and a feeling of injustice (war reparations) to seize power from within a coalition.