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Full-frame cameras... are they worth the extra weight?


LenShepherd 12 4.1k United Kingdom
21 Mar 2020 12:33PM

Quote:Everyone seems to go on about how amazing full-frame is. And yeah I get it, for low-light etc, it's great. But for me, the size added to the camera system once you add the lens(es) just isn't worth it...

Worth it - to whom?

First on dynamic range in low light.
You have two options - you do not get much even with 24x36 at high ISO's - unless you use a tripod for a lower ISO - with perhaps a noise penalty - or you avoid shooting in low light.

More MP helps - particularly if you crop a lot with birds in flight etc - or you want to make a print as big as a house door and then view it from 15 inches.

Generally there are more high quality though expensive lenses for 24x36 format, and better build in the more expensive models.

Medium Format, 24x36, DX and 4:3 formats each have pluses and minuses.
For me a mix of DX and 24x36 is a good combination - but it will not be right for many other photographers

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andart 18 526 United Kingdom
21 Mar 2020 3:43PM

Quote:Quote:
Quote:
Quote:Where's Lemmy's review of the MFT system gone?

Its still on youtube:


Ah, yes. I'm even subscribed to that. GrinGrinGrin
Going doolally. Blush


No need to go anywhere outside ePz,

it's still here

where it has been since the first day of publication.
Items on the home page are only displayed there temporarily, while they are fresh, before being replaced by something newer. When clicking on the article on the home page, you only end up at its permanent place.



I only put in the youtube link as it was easier to find it on youtube than it was on epz...
saltireblue Plus
9 10.4k 59 Norway
21 Mar 2020 4:11PM
Result of a quick and simple search for "MFT Review" here on ePz...

128530_1584807000.jpg

seahawk 12 1.3k United Kingdom
22 Mar 2020 11:41AM
Friend of mine has a FF camera, I use a Panny G90. We went out together for a camera day (ages before Covid 19) and took the same shot then printed them on A3 paper. Neither of us could tell the difference between the prints.
He's now considering selling the FF kit and getting something lighter. The weight problem is the lenses not the camera itself.
I used to use Nikon kit but not for a minute do I regret moving to MFT kit and I would consider it a waste of money (for my hobbyist use) to buy a FF outfit.
LenShepherd 12 4.1k United Kingdom
25 Mar 2020 7:18AM

Quote:If you capture say 14 stops dynamic range in a scene as opposed to say 12.
Dave


STOP!
You can hardly ever normally capture 14 or even 12 stops DR in a scene - because it is not there!
9 stops in a scene is quite high DR.
DaveRyder Plus
6 3.9k 2 United Kingdom
25 Mar 2020 7:58AM
I can't remember where I saw it but I remember a video/article on the decision process.
It was a decision tree process that lead you to the most suitable/cost effective format to meet your needs.

Things like..
Do you do lots of low light work - MFT not the best option.
Do you need light weight - MFT best option.

For the IQ I require and the pictures I take MFT is ideal.
When I look at images on here, quite enviously, that are better than mine 90% or more is down to my lack of creative skill and software editing aptitude.

I could throw a load of money at it and fall into the category - 'All the gear little idea' - as my output would not improve proportional to cost.

All that said there is the other side of the coin - simply I want full frame kit and I can afford it.

Dave_Canon Plus
13 1.7k United Kingdom
25 Mar 2020 10:19AM

Quote:
STOP!
You can hardly ever normally capture 14 or even 12 stops DR in a scene - because it is not there!
9 stops in a scene is quite high DR.



Len sorry I disagree and so do many experts on HDR such as Ferrell McCollough. A guide to scene DR is: -

Overcast but no sky in scene - 3 stops
Sunny with side lighting - 7 stops
Snow capped mountains in sunny landscape - 12 stops
Night Scene with Street Lamps - 14 stops
Interior with sun streaming through Window - 14 stops
Full Sunny backlit scene - 17 stops

My wife just takes a few snaps so she would rarely take images in the last 3 categories and just accepts burnt out snow in the third category. On the other hand many of my shots fall into the last four categories so what is normal for some is not for others. Clearly working in these more difficult lighting scenarios is more challenging and thus more likely to be successful in competitions which is what I do. I have not just accepted Ferrell's book or the plenty of other information on this topic. I have measured the DR and various scenes to check myself just using my camera meter in spot mode. The fact is I had to use multiple exposures for many landscape shots with my 5D2 but no longer need to do this with my 5D4.

Dave
petebfrance 8 2.9k France
25 Mar 2020 12:42PM
Nice discussion which I will follow with interest. For some scenes including skies and shadows I find it useful to either use HDR or rely on being able to lift the shadows on my APSC DSLR, and just accept it isn't going to work with my small sensor bridge camera.
It prompted me to think about the DR of human vision and I found this (it's quite short, won't take long to read):
https://wolfcrow.com/notes-by-dr-optoglass-dynamic-range-of-the-human-eye/
The conclusion that DR was about 20 stops kind of foxed me given the earlier part, but I'm sure somebody can make something of it.
Dave_Canon Plus
13 1.7k United Kingdom
25 Mar 2020 4:07PM
It is not so simple with Humans. Sight includes eyes and there short term and longer term adaption as well as the brain. Certainly even short term adaption with pupil dilation you may have 18 stops. With longer term adaption (chemical changes) 20+ stops are possible. However, it is important to remember that if you looked from the shadows to a very bright areas then look back to the shadows, your brain remembers what was there before. In essence when you look around a high contrast area you do see shadow and highlight details but you are probably not concentrating on both at the same time whereas we expect our cameras to cope.

Although I do not do this myself an snap with a Phone using HDR will give a picture which is closer to what we believe we have seen.

Dave
LenShepherd 12 4.1k United Kingdom
27 Mar 2020 8:59AM

Quote:Nice discussion which I will follow with interest. For some scenes including skies and shadows I find it useful to either use HDR or rely on being able to lift the shadows on my APSC DSLR, and just accept it isn't going to work with my small sensor bridge camera

When you go for a high dynamic range situation there is a good chance of using a tripod.
2 or 3 shots at different exposures blended in something like Lightroom usually produces a good result in about 5 seconds.
LenShepherd 12 4.1k United Kingdom
27 Mar 2020 9:10AM

Quote:
Snow capped mountains in sunny landscape - 12 stops
Night Scene with Street Lamps - 14 stops
Interior with sun streaming through Window - 14 stops
Full Sunny backlit scene - 17 stops
Dave


There are as yet no 24x36 cameras that do a complete 15 stops dynamic range - as distinct from compressing detail at the bottom and/or top of the exposure range.
Tripod and multi exposures is one solution.
9 stops in either a jpeg for the web or in a print without compressing the exposure steps remains about the upper limit.
petebfrance 8 2.9k France
27 Mar 2020 11:33AM

Quote:
Quote:Nice discussion which I will follow with interest. For some scenes including skies and shadows I find it useful to either use HDR or rely on being able to lift the shadows on my APSC DSLR, and just accept it isn't going to work with my small sensor bridge camera

When you go for a high dynamic range situation there is a good chance of using a tripod.
2 or 3 shots at different exposures blended in something like Lightroom usually produces a good result in about 5 seconds.


Ususally I just use the in-camera HDR mode (Pentax) hand-held which seems to work well, although subject movement on windy days does make it much less effective so it's use is a bit limited in my case . My suspicion is that it is the in-camera software that does a good job because the time taken to shoot the exposures is well beyond what I'd expect from the inbuilt IS. I think, though (but without any 'proof' or real understanding behind it!) that HDR should be more effective than just 'lifting the shadows' because it is (I think!) 'mapping' the tones throughout the image rather than just in the shadow areas.

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