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Full-frame cameras... are they worth the extra weight?


LenShepherd 12 4.3k United Kingdom
5 Dec 2020 7:28AM

Quote: I use a 70D and although it does have an in camera HDR function I seem to remember someone telling me it wouldn't work if I was shooting raw + jpeg, and it had to be jpeg only.

Looking at the user manual on a suppliers web site can be more reliable than trying to recall what someone might have told you.

Not all cameras have a HDR mode.
A better way assuming you have suitable post processing software is to take 3 shots, One under exposed, one correct and one overexposed.
Then blend the three images in your preferred software and you usually get a final image with wider dynamic range than with a single shot taken in camera.
saltireblue Plus
10 11.4k 70 Norway
5 Dec 2020 7:39AM
If your camera does have an in-built HDR mode, then the resulting image produced by the camera will only be in jpeg, not raw.
Better to do as advised above, take three or more images in raw format and combine them afterwards.
billip 16 422 United Kingdom
5 Dec 2020 7:47AM
Thanks Len, you're absolutely right of course. I even have the original printed manual !
Re processing software, I've recently started using Canon's own DPP, rather than ACR Bridge, as my version of the Adobe programme is CS4, which won't convert raw images from the 70D.
LenShepherd 12 4.3k United Kingdom
5 Dec 2020 11:26AM

Quote:
Re processing software, I've recently started using Canon's own DPP, rather than ACR Bridge, as my version of the Adobe programme is CS4, which won't convert raw images from the 70D.


I expect - but cannot confirm - if you convert your 3 different exposure images to TIFF Bridge will open them.
I doubt though CS4 has the current Lightroom ability to blend the files.
billip 16 422 United Kingdom
5 Dec 2020 11:40AM

Quote:
Quote: I expect - but cannot confirm - if you convert your 3 different exposure images to TIFF Bridge will open them.
I doubt though CS4 has the current Lightroom ability to blend the files.



Thanks, will give that a try. Actually I can still use Bridge by converting my raw images to DNG, although I have not tried using DNG images to blend three in to one for HDR. Probably wouldn't work as DNG is basically raw under another, open source name if I'm not mistaken ?

LenShepherd 12 4.3k United Kingdom
5 Dec 2020 12:28PM

Quote:
I can still use Bridge by converting my raw images to DNG, although I have not tried using DNG images to blend three in to one for HDR.
Probably wouldn't work as DNG is basically raw under another, open source name if I'm not mistaken ?


Whatever your Bridge software can do - which with old software is limited - should work with jpg, TIFF or DNG.

The full Adobe "Cloud" package at £120 a year on monthly subscription I consider good value as you get a lot including regular free updates and new features, and a lot of free Cloud storage.
You do not have to pay to get significant upgrades and features when they become available. With some software you have to pay again to get new features.
peterjones 18 5.1k 1 United Kingdom
5 Dec 2020 12:29PM
When I first joined epz many many years ago I remember debates between 35mm and 120 film, subsequently we all enjoyed digital versus film, nowadays it is full frame versus smaller sensors, all interesting stuff but for me I just use what I use and let my pictures be the final arbitrators.
LenShepherd 12 4.3k United Kingdom
6 Dec 2020 9:43AM

Quote:
Quote:
STOP!
You can hardly ever normally capture 14 or even 12 stops DR in a scene - because it is not there!
9 stops in a scene is quite high DR.



Len sorry I disagree and so do many experts on HDR such as Ferrell McCollough. A guide to scene DR is: -

Overcast but no sky in scene - 3 stops
Depends how overcast yes - but can be more than 3 stops.
Sunny with side lighting - 7 stops
Snow capped mountains in sunny landscape - 12 stops
Night Scene with Street Lamps - 14 stops
Interior with sun streaming through Window - 14 stops
Full Sunny backlit scene - 17 stops
Dave


Historically -
Snow capped mountains (presuming no haze) in an otherwise sunny landscape is around 8-9 stop reflectance.
8 stops less reflection than typical snow gets you to black velvet i.e. 85% election down to 0.5 reflection.
Night scene with street lamps - assuming reasonable reflection of the street light from the ground - rarely 8 stops - though I agree if you want to keep a search light with no reflected light within the highlight detail - maybe yes - but this is about as far as you can get from a normal scene - which is why I said "hardly ever".
Interior light streaming through a window - if a room with light or mid tone painted walls - typically 7-8 stops.
Full sunny backlit scene Kodak rate black velvet at 8 stops, going up to 11 stops for a blackest object in shadow.
Maybe your experts are a bit optimistic Grin
peterjones 18 5.1k 1 United Kingdom
6 Dec 2020 10:00AM
This is all interesting stuff but in the end mere techno babble, no more, no less, get out there, take pictures and see what works for you.
Dave_Canon 14 1.9k United Kingdom
6 Dec 2020 10:25AM

Quote:

Historically -
Snow capped mountains (presuming no haze) in an otherwise sunny landscape is around 8-9 stop reflectance.
8 stops less reflection than typical snow gets you to black velvet i.e. 85% election down to 0.5 reflection.
Night scene with street lamps - assuming reasonable reflection of the street light from the ground - rarely 8 stops - though I agree if you want to keep a search light with no reflected light within the highlight detail - maybe yes - but this is about as far as you can get from a normal scene - which is why I said "hardly ever".
Interior light streaming through a window - if a room with light or mid tone painted walls - typically 7-8 stops.
Full sunny backlit scene Kodak rate black velvet at 8 stops, going up to 11 stops for a blackest object in shadow.
Maybe your experts are a bit optimistic Grin



I am sorry Len you are just plain wrong. I am not just going by my reference books written by well respected photographers but I have measured these myself. When on a holiday in the Canadian Rockies, I was unlikely to return so it was important to correctly capture the scenes. I measured the light values using spot metering and certainly found 12 stops for snow capped mountains in sun. At the time my 5D2 could only manage 11 stops (possible slightly less) so I took 3 exposures (2 would have done). Once back home, it was necessary to combine more than one exposure for snow capped mountains though scenery without snow was fine with a single but accurate exposure. I do not use ND Grads. I also emphasised that the majority of my photography would included the last four categories listed. I have found that for competitions it is better to work in the more difficult areas.

Dave
LenShepherd 12 4.3k United Kingdom
6 Dec 2020 1:37PM

Quote:
Quote:

I am sorry Len you are just plain wrong. I am not just going by my reference books written by well respected photographers but I have measured these myself. (snipped)
I do not use ND Grads. I also emphasised that the majority of my photography would included the last four categories listed.
Dave


I too have experience - actually 57 years - including in the French Alps in August as long ago as 1965 shooting with K25.

I do not use ND's either - having recently sold my largely unused Lee.

Lets put it this way - light reflection has not changed since photography was invented - and your experience is different to mine.

My experience includes a few years as a Pro before taking early retirement.

billip 16 422 United Kingdom
6 Dec 2020 5:05PM
Different strokes for different folks Wink
6 Jan 2021 9:49PM
I would love a swanky new mirrorless camera with pro quality lenses but can't afford it even second hand. Did consider getting a used older FF canon but after reading a lot of blogs and online stuff found my newer crop sensor camera will out perform it, plus to get the best out of it I would need to use top notch glass ( now that's another argument that seems to get people going) Anyway interestingly I was on the seafront after sunset couple of months ago without a tripod couldn't get a non blurry shot with my 100d so got my phone out and blow me got a sharper brighter less noisy shot. Last year saw on TV a woman's phone shot of a royal visit that got on the front pages of magazines all over the world, chosen in front of a fair few pro shots, I think it was the one show, they sent her out armed with her phone on an assignment with a pro equipped with his pro gear and blow me her pics were chosen over his! I will still stick with a proper camera though. But I think a lot of people under estimate what modern small sensors are capable of.

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