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grrrr printing!!!!

28 Nov 2017 8:55PM
before you say my monitor is too bright, listen up......... Grin

calibrated monitors (all set to 112cd/m2), calibrated printer with correct profile loaded for the paper (Pro-luster by Canon), sample images from Datacolor and Canon loaded into Photoshop and printed, matches ^almost accuratley with my screens in my studio so something must be going ok.
I can also print webpage images through windows and Photoshop and they come out more than fine too............ BUT.......

I print one of my own images and they come out really dark - using the same profile / settings / similar brightness / contrast to ones that work great

Cameras colour space set the same too.

one more thing, If I send the final files to an external printer, they come out spot on!

any ideas?

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Philh04 Plus
14 2.1k United Kingdom
28 Nov 2017 9:11PM
Process of elimination...

How was the 112cd/m^2 determined? You say monitors, are they all under the same ambient light conditions?

Calibrated printer? You can profile a printer/ink/paper combination, are you producing your own profiles?

What colour space are the sample images and what colour space are your images?

Are you soft proofing? and what are the viewing conditions for the prints?
sherlob Plus
13 3.1k 129 United Kingdom
28 Nov 2017 9:26PM
Are you soft proofing?
28 Nov 2017 9:32PM
hi Phil, thanks for the reply, here are the answers to your questions:

my monitors are all calibrated using a spyder elite under fixed diffused light conditions in my studio, all of my monitors (same models are under the same light conditions)

Canon pro-100s with profiles for the printer and canon pro luster paper tweaked with spyderprint - as I mentioned earlier, all other pictures such as test images and downloaded images come out spot on

soft proof (view - proof setup - custom - canon pro-100s with pro luster profile and simulate paper, tweaked using levels and curves, looks good on screen but not on paper...


28 Nov 2017 9:34PM
thanks for the reply Sherlob, yes, softproofing and saving softproof file version separately before printing
Philh04 Plus
14 2.1k United Kingdom
28 Nov 2017 9:48PM
Still more questions Tongue

How was the luminance of the monitors determined?

What illumination are the prints being viewed under to determine the monitor luminance?

What colour space are your finalised print files?

Seems things should be OK, it would seem that something is amiss. Have you tried the canned profiles that come with the printer? However it is very rare for a dodgy profile to result in prints that are too dark.

I do suspect a monitor/viewing condition problem.
Euan65 Plus
2 316 United Kingdom
28 Nov 2017 9:58PM
I calibrate my monitor with a Spyder Pro. I use SilverFast Ai Studio to produce a printer test sheet on Kodak inkjet paper and then scan it on my V600 scanner & use the resulting printer profile. I re-run the calibrations usually once a month. My prints through Photoshop using that profile generally come out as I expect them to.

I don't have a Canon printer and don't use Canon paper, but I'm fairly sure I have read that Canon paper can be tricky. Have you tried using a different paper?
Chris_L 5 5.2k United Kingdom
28 Nov 2017 9:58PM
Forget the monitors for the time being. Concentrate on the differences between the web photos that print fine, the sample images that print fine and your own images.

What's the workflow of those. You say you set colourspace in camera. That only affects jpeg. What format are your images in before you print them. What colourspace are they in, what are they tagged with, what bit depth, what file type?

eg Are they ProPhoto 16 bit Tiff or aRGB 8 bit JPEG files or something else?
28 Nov 2017 10:03PM
brilliant, thanks Phil, at least you are giving me the opportunity to check my own methods and check my own thoughts on it, I really appreciate it.

My monitor colorimeter determines the luminescence of the screens and the ambient light in my studio, It sits just above my studio desk flashing every few minutes as it takes a reading.
I can have my prints on the desk and have them within a reasonably similar luminescence level to the screen itself, If I print the datacolor or canon test print, it comes out just as I would expect i.e. very well so there is no problem at all in that respect, those prints are adobe RGB, as are the ones coming out of my cameras and being edited in adobe RGB too. I always shoot in Raw unless I need to get images out quickly so they are converted to jpg or Photoshop files using Adobe RGB.

you are right, its why its frustrating, there must be something that I am not doing right, I have been going through everything one stage at a time, including swapping to sRGB for a while, changing all the print settings and doing prints to see what affect it has, checking its not profiling the image twice before printing, profile on Photoshop vs on printer, changing paper and profile etc., recalibrating the screens (in case anyone has adjusted them)

I think its cheaper to just send them off rather than spending all this time trying to print!

thanks again for your help Phil
28 Nov 2017 10:08PM
Hi Euan, thanks for the reply, I have tried different papers too, including why I guess will be the same Kodak paper as yours.... same result, same frustration,

Hi Chris, thanks for the reply too, you are right about the camera colour mode, only use RAW unless its need quickly and then its not printed, looking in bridge, the test files are Adobe RGB, just like mine, although one is in proRGB but that can be ignored as nothing I have can match that range of colours anyway.

raw files are always converted using ACR to Adobe RGB to 16 bit
Tianshi_angie 4 2.6k England
28 Nov 2017 10:12PM
I am nowhere near as experienced as the folk who have already replied to you but in my own experience the problem is Photoshop and it may well be worth trying the solution I have found. If you have Lightroom then try using that for printing and see if you get the same effects. When printing with Lightroom the soft proofing is done in Develop and for me it works far more successfully than printing from Photoshop - Photoshop always comes out very dark whereas Lightroom is spot on. I have no idea why but it works for me.
Chris_L 5 5.2k United Kingdom
28 Nov 2017 10:54PM
Test photos loaded into Ps print out fine, the same program prints out your own photos too dark. There must be a difference between the files. Load both a test and one of your own. Look at the file info. Can you copy them from window to window without a warning on bit depth or colorspace?
Nick_w Plus
12 4.3k 99 England
28 Nov 2017 11:30PM
An obvious question, are you letting Photoshop manage the colours? (Don’t use the specific paper profile created by the paper manufacturer) disable “let photoshop manage colours” if you don’t you are in effect applying double colour management - if this is the case, I suspect your images will be coming out dark
Are you using a PC or Mac? (They manage colours differently)
Are you using “Print” in photoshop or the app specific to Canon (which I would recommend).

I suspect the fact your talking adobeRGB etc, you have some confusion with colour management. Papers have a different colour space, that’s why you need specific paper profiles. What this does is photoshop “maps” the input colour space to the papers colour space - typically a smaller space than your monitor. It can be frustrating but worth the effort.

I reiterate as you have the Canon printer, I would use their app, it makes it much, much easier.
Nick_w Plus
12 4.3k 99 England
28 Nov 2017 11:50PM
It’s worth watching the David Noton video for both Lightroom and Photoshop, they are excellent and easy to follow.
Philh04 Plus
14 2.1k United Kingdom
29 Nov 2017 9:07AM

Quote:My monitor colorimeter determines the luminescence of the screens and the ambient light in my studio, It sits just above my studio desk flashing every few minutes as it takes a reading.

OK I think we can start to eliminate things: Don't let the hardware/software dictate what the luminance levels of your monitor should be based on ambient light levels, invariably it will be wrong, it will be OK for viewing the screen but not for printing.
Determine the correct luminance level by viewing your print next to the monitor under a standard light source, I use a GrafiLite, your monitor luminance should 'match' the print bearing in mind the differences between transmitted and reflected light. You will never get it exact (that is impossible) but you should get as close a match as possible.

Another quick hint, from your description you are producing your own printer profiles, when reading the patches place a few sheets of the same paper underneath so that whatever is under the print does not affect the reading.

Now lets look at the workflow.

You are finalising your image to what you want it to look like in PS, saving that as your master. Then Duplicating that image and enabling soft proofing using your Canon Luster profile and with simulate paper white and black checked, then viewing the master and the proof copy dupe side by side and adjusting the proof copy to get as close as you can to the master.(Personally I would use only levels or curves avoiding using both together) A good profile should need little adjustment, even my Black and White profiles need very little tweaking.

That proof copy you are then saving in the the colour space as your original, doesn't really matter if it is aRGB or ProPhoto.

Then you come to print. with your proof copy active open the print dialogue, we won't look at all the options, the important one is 'Let Photoshop manage colours' and you have your Canon Luster profile selected (and hopefully the original space showing as aRGB, ProPhoto RGB).

I always then go through and check that all is right in the driver settings such as the correct media etc (I have printed with the wrong type selected and had a dark print BTW).

Everything should print OK.

I am sure we can get there in the end. If needs be you can send me a file which I can print (One of my printers is a 100s, but I don't use Canon Papers) see if it prints OK here.

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