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Has the government gone too far?


Jestertheclown 12 8.4k 253 England
23 Feb 2021 3:14PM

Quote:

I hardly think this government or many previous governments have played in the Premier League! Sad


I don't think CB's comment was aimed at the government.
Rather the "experts" on here.
gcarth Plus
16 3.9k 1 United Kingdom
23 Feb 2021 4:54PM

Quote:
Quote:

I hardly think this government or many previous governments have played in the Premier League! Sad


I don't think CB's comment was aimed at the government.
Rather the "experts" on here.

Well, I'm not aware of any expert opinion or comment on here at the moment.
What I see are some rational attempts to get to grips with why our leaders don't listen to expert opinion or act in the national interest - or why they are so embroiled in corrupt practices.
That does not take an expert to comprehend - it's simply a matter of moral principles and rationality.
23 Feb 2021 5:02PM

Quote:Well, I'm not aware of any expert opinion or comment on here at the moment.
What I see are some rational attempts to get to grips with why our leaders don't listen to expert opinion or act in the national interest - or why they are so embroiled in corrupt practices.
That does not take an expert to comprehend - it's simply a matter of moral principles and rationality.


Agree. It’s what we all do, one way or another, usually ending with vote come election times.
Jestertheclown 12 8.4k 253 England
23 Feb 2021 5:41PM

Quote:That isn't just my opinion - it's the opinion of most of the experts I have listened to.




Quote:Well, I'm not aware of any expert opinion or comment on here at the moment.

Can't have it all ways Garth.

The fact is, none of us have any idea what's going on, or has been going on.
I said that in a thread back in (probably) March of last year when all of this was just kicking off and even then, the usual suspects were slagging off the government and shouting about what a poor job they were doing.
Governments worldwide, not just ours, have been faced with an issue that they'd never encountered and had probably never excepted to encounter and as such, they've had to respond as best they could.
Rather than constantly denigrating their efforts and putting them down, wouldn't it be a breath of fresh air to take a fresh look and say "You know what? They've done what they thought was best, given the circumstances."
Could any of us done a better job? No. Of course not.
23 Feb 2021 6:00PM
Jester, time and time again you've been on these threads and given your views on how ridiculous you thought all the rules were/are, stating how you have been 'muzzled;. To me thats not an informed opinion but you have a right to express it. As do others on here.

We all now know how the government were late shutting down, the illegal PPE contracts etc. Its not hard to find out the information if you have the will, I dont think anyone wants the government to do badly, we all need this to succeed but come on they have been pretty shoddy about alot of things.

I think the vaccine programme is going really well, it is so far a success and I'm quietly confident given the latest data that transmission may be curbed - so yes I do think they have done well on that!

What do you think they have done well?
saltireblue Plus
10 11.6k 71 Norway
23 Feb 2021 6:21PM
Interesting read in the WSJ by a doctor, explaining which countries have done best in various areas of fighting the virus.
Jestertheclown 12 8.4k 253 England
23 Feb 2021 7:34PM

Quote:What do you think they have done well?

It's not a question of what the government, or anyone, has done well and we shouldn't need to be selecting specific examples.
The suggestion that the government were late in shutting down is wholly subjective and just an opinion. I'm sure that those who really know/knew what led to the decision to shut down and when to do it had their reasons.
I don't know any more than anyone outside of government about the PPE contracts, so unlike others, I'll say nothing.
The only information that any of us has access to, is what we are allowed to access.
Of course no-one wants the government to do badly. It would just be a pleasant change if, just for once, these threads weren't constantly littered with comments telling us that they are doing badly. Accusing them of being corrupt and incapable.
I repeat what I said above: the government(s) had no idea what they were faced with and responded as best they could.
Jestertheclown 12 8.4k 253 England
23 Feb 2021 7:36PM

Quote:Interesting read

Thanks.
It is, isn't it?

gcarth Plus
16 3.9k 1 United Kingdom
23 Feb 2021 9:03PM

Quote:The suggestion that the government were late in shutting down is wholly subjective and just an opinion.

Try and tell that to any epidemiologist. I think they would seriously question that ...I've yet to hear of an expert backing your opinion.

Quote:I repeat what I said above: the government(s) had no idea what they were faced with and responded as best they could.
Of course the government knew what they might well be dealing with but they wilfully ignored what the experts were saying from day one regarding the virus.
The government clearly still hadn't learned anything when they allowed Christmas celebrations to go ahead much as normal.
As I've said, I'm no expert but even I remember telling my friends with sadness and anger that there would be a big increase in infections and deaths as a result of allowing Christmas to go ahead.

Quote:It would just be a pleasant change if, just for once, these threads weren't constantly littered with comments telling us that they are doing badly. Accusing them of being corrupt and incapable.

Well, they awarded contracts to business cronies to produce PPE without putting these contracts out to tender - at huge expense to the taxpayer. If that isn't corruption and incompetence, I don't know what is.
Of course the whole political system is corrupt - Labour or Tory.
In my opinion, we still have old-fashioned class-conscious "Empire" group thinking where the Establishment consider they know best and resist progressive change and genuine democracy where more equality and harmony are considered something for a government to really prioritise in it's aspirations.
I'm sorry if I keep banging on about how bad things are...but they really are much worse than they need be. Our politicians don't just make a few little mistakes - they make big mistakes - criminally insane decisions that too often result in thousands of unnecessary deaths.
Jestertheclown 12 8.4k 253 England
23 Feb 2021 9:48PM

Quote:Try and tell that to any epidemiologist. I think they would seriously question that ...I've yet to hear of an expert backing your opinion.

If you're going to quote me, please quote the whole thing to keep it in context. Quoting bits to suit your own agenda isn't how it works.

Quote:Of course the government knew what they might well be dealing with but they wilfully ignored what the experts were saying from day one regarding the virus.

How on earth do you arrive at that conclusion? No-one had ever previously seen or heard of this virus.

You might choose to believe (and it certainly suits your established narrative) that the government wilfully ignored the so-called experts but you have absolutely no way of knowing that.
Unfortunately, even if you are right, and you might well be, none of us will ever know.

Yes, opening up at Christmas was perhaps a mistake; however, how many people would have carried on regardless had they not been "allowed" to?

Quote:I'm sorry if I keep banging on about how bad things are...but they really are much worse than they need be.

You don't just bang on about it, you've turned it into a crusade.
As I've said before, respectfully, it doesn't matter what the subject is, you invariably turn it into a government bashing platform.


Dave_Canon 14 1.9k United Kingdom
23 Feb 2021 10:21PM

Quote: The government clearly still hadn't learned anything when they allowed Christmas celebrations to go ahead much as normal.
As I've said, I'm no expert but even I remember telling my friends with sadness and anger that there would be a big increase in infections and deaths as a result of allowing Christmas to go ahead.



Yes they took the decision rather late but my Christmas was anything but normal no family gatherings; did not get to see my granddaughter etc. If you carried on as normal, then you played a part in the increased infections.

I an earlier post I suggested that a democratic government trying to impose more severe restrictions that the population think justified will lead to failure to comply but you suggested this was not the case and that people did comply. Now you re saying the opposite.

I an afraid that you seem to have an attitude which is against anything that this government does irrespective of the situation or the facts bearing in mind as Jester said we do not know all the facts and probably never will.

Dave
24 Feb 2021 7:50AM

Quote:Well, they awarded contracts to business cronies to produce PPE without putting these contracts out to tender - at huge expense to the taxpayer. If that isn't corruption and incompetence, I don't know what is
A matter of law now, more to come out on this soon but still Hancock lies about it and tries tactics to try and stop the truth from being told.


Quote: we do not know all the facts and probably never will.
We probably will not know everything, some of that may not be anyone's fault but if we do find out facts, like the PPE example I quoted, shouldn't we listen and understand rather than denigrate anyone who dares to speak out against our governments? Isn't that how dictatorships start, blindly accepting all that they tell us?

I still find it odd that we still keep hearing "the government had no idea", its no wonder our medical and scientific professions are so disillusioned.

Although it has nothing to do with the pandemic I've just watched some clips of the US senate where one senator chooses not to ask questions of a witness to the January 6th insurrection but instead to read out propaganda, democracy is on a very thin line and choosing to ignore what you see with your own eyes is a slippery slope.
gcarth Plus
16 3.9k 1 United Kingdom
24 Feb 2021 10:10AM

Quote:I an afraid that you seem to have an attitude which is against anything that this government does irrespective of the situation or the facts bearing in mind as Jester said we do not know all the facts and probably never will.

Dave

I really don't understand how you can say that in the light of such manifest incompetence by this government but we will have to agree to differ.
Yes, I'm against many things that this government or any previous governments have done because they are all inextricably linked with big business and put profit before people. I'm not some lone anarchist or conspiracy theorist: From what I read and hear, my views are shared by a hell of a lot of people - rightly or wrongly. Obviously, I think we are right.Smile

Quote:Jester said we do not know all the facts and probably never will.

I must admit that I forgot to address that when Jester first aired that view but it is one thing we can heartily agree on.
That said, I suspect Jester and I are talking about very different facts.Wink

Quote:You don't just bang on about it, you've turned it into a crusade.
As I've said before, respectfully, it doesn't matter what the subject is, you invariably turn it into a government bashing platform.

So you think it is wrong to criticise governments who have routinely lied, broken International Laws and committed Human Rights crimes?
I would remind you that this thread IS after all, about government behaviour...
Jestertheclown 12 8.4k 253 England
24 Feb 2021 11:32AM

Quote:So you think it is wrong to criticise governments

There's nothing wrong with questioning/criticising governments provided it's done in a reasonable manner, including, most importantly, accepting others' points of view and being open to the idea that you might just be wrong.

Sadly, you don't approach it that way. Debate is a two way street.

Quote:I would remind you that this thread IS after all, about government behaviour...

If it was a thread about the weather, you'd still be carping on about the government.
gcarth Plus
16 3.9k 1 United Kingdom
24 Feb 2021 12:07PM

Quote:There's nothing wrong with questioning/criticising governments provided it's done in a reasonable manner, including, most importantly, accepting others' points of view and being open to the idea that you might just be wrong.
A reasonable manner?
What is a reasonable manner? I think what you I think is a reasonable manner might be up for debate.Smile


Quote:If it was a thread about the weather, you'd still be carping on about the government.
So you make what I think is an unreasonable remark instead of addressing my point about the thread being about political behaviour.

Quote:Sadly, you don't approach it that way. Debate is a two way street.

Yes, but of course I would remind you that applies to you too!

I think it is clearly pointless you and I arguing like this because we are both entitled to our opinions and so have to agree to differ.

So In a democracy I suppose you should still be allowed to defend successive governments - as you do - even in their well-documented breaching of laws and cronyism, etc.

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