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Has the world benefited from the NeoCons? ?Free Market Economics??


gcarth Plus
16 3.6k 1 United Kingdom
22 May 2020 2:19PM
I find it difficult to see how most ordinary people have benefited and yet there is very little criticism of “Free Market Economics” in the mainstream media.

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Dave_Canon Plus
13 1.7k United Kingdom
22 May 2020 3:48PM
The alternative of Communism has been a complete failure. Generally European countries try to use a market driven economy with some sensible social support which works reasonably well. Without the market drive, there is no incentive for any one to work harder and better themselves or no encouragement for creation which means new jobs.

One alternative I have read is to pay everyone a wage and automate everything so no one needs to work. However, if you choose to work, you cane earn money on top of your national wage.

Dave
gcarth Plus
16 3.6k 1 United Kingdom
22 May 2020 6:15PM

Quote:The alternative of Communism has been a complete failure. Generally European countries try to use a market driven economy with some sensible social support which works reasonably well. Without the market drive, there is no incentive for any one to work harder and better themselves or no encouragement for creation which means new jobs.

One alternative I have read is to pay everyone a wage and automate everything so no one needs to work. However, if you choose to work, you cane earn money on top of your national wage.

Dave

Well, I would agree that Communism has been a failure but I think that Capitalism has also failed in many cases - although admittedly to a lesser degree than Communism. To my mind, the introduction of Free Market Economics, with its lack of regulation is the real problem. I think Capitalism is a very flawed system (albeit the best we've got) and the Free Market version has just pushed Capitalism up into further unhealthy excess and ultimately, the further abuse of human rights.

Quote:One alternative I have read is to pay everyone a wage and automate everything so no one needs to work. However, if you choose to work, you cane earn money on top of your national wage.
Yes, I think the introduction of widescale Universal Basic Income is probably inevitable in the not so distant future.

lemmy 13 2.8k United Kingdom
22 May 2020 7:59PM

Quote:Yes, I think the introduction of widescale Universal Basic Income is probably inevitable in the not so distant future.
Tried in Finland and abandoned, I believe. It's a utopian notion, really. Human beings need a sense of purpose. If you take away the need to make a living you end up like the native Americans or Inuit or the Aboriginals whose way of life was confiscated by colonists and they thus lost their sense of purpose, often turning to drugs and alcohol..

Capitalism, Communism et al are just buzz words. Humans don't fit or work with such systems, they are untidy and individualistic. Every attempt to impose a system on people finishes up with a system no more just or less authoritarian than the one it replaced. Market capitalism is our best bet in my opinion but with necessary safeguards. As Harold McMillan said(ish), "communism is a good system that doesn't work. Capitalism is a rotten one that does."

Leaving aside family, my best moments in life have been while working. Most of my life I would prefer to be at work than at leisure. Striving to learn more, do it better, compete better, it was all rewarded by the money earned. I wouldn't want that satisfaction taken away from anyone who wanted it.

Mind you, I was with a religious friend the other day who was telling me of the harmony and peace to come in heaven and I was thinking to myself that it sounded like my idea of hell so maybe I'm out of kilter with current thinking.
Fma7 5 1.1k United Kingdom
22 May 2020 8:24PM
It's all the media's fault.

It always is.
JackAllTog Plus
11 6.0k 58 United Kingdom
22 May 2020 10:45PM
I think the media actually highlights and shames rather well the tax avoidance schemes, off shore havens, low tax regime registered global companies etc
Fma7 5 1.1k United Kingdom
22 May 2020 10:48PM

Quote:I think the media actually highlights and shames rather well the tax avoidance schemes, off shore havens, low tax regime registered global companies etc


That can't be right, the media are controlled by the very people who carry out these schemes
gcarth Plus
16 3.6k 1 United Kingdom
22 May 2020 10:57PM

Quote:Tried in Finland and abandoned, I believe. It's a utopian notion, really.
I didn't know that they'd tried it and it had failed in Finland. I know they are trying it elsewhere but I think it's a good idea to at least give it a try in a number of places first before the idea is discarded.
As you say, human beings need a sense of purpose but of course it is human beings who are creating more and more jobs for robots in the future and so UBI may be inevitable - if not an entirely a satisfactory solution.Sad

Quote:As Harold McMillan said(ish), "communism is a good system that doesn't work. Capitalism is a rotten one that does."

Speaking as a "lefty", I think Harold was quite a wise old buffer. I wish we had more Tories like him now! He seemed to try to promote a less divided society than we have now.

My view is that the Free Market Capitalism that we've had since about the late 1970's helps the rich to get richer but doesn't help the poor. The assertion that the Free Market would create a "trickle down" effect to benefit the poor seems not to have happened.
However, the real problem I have with the Free Market, is that it is based on dogma - a dogma that has been forced on us whether we like it or not.
The whole Free Market thing started with the overthrow of a democratically elected government in Chile - There were killings on a massive scale. The coup headed by Pinochet and the killings were facilitated by the intervention of the US. This US interference was in order to impose the NeoCon dogma of the Free Market.
Since then, of course, there have been more US and UK illegal invasions - like the 2003 invasion of Iraq.
Did the hundreds of thousands of Iraqis really have to die so that the US and UK could take out Saddam Hussein?
The US and UK helped install Saddam Hussein when it suited them. The real reason, for US and UK interference of course, was to impose the Free Market system and "democracy" on Iraq. Is it not ironic how they took away democracy from the people of Chile!
So as you may have gathered, I have nothing but contempt for the so-called "Free Market". I think it is an evil abuse of power.
22 May 2020 11:01PM

Quote:think the media actually highlights and shames rather well the tax avoidance schemes, off shore havens, low tax regime registered global companies etc
Only when it suits their agenda and quite often forgets the same principles when it comes to their owners and backers.
Dave_Canon Plus
13 1.7k United Kingdom
23 May 2020 9:51AM

Quote:It's a utopian notion, really. Human beings need a sense of purpose. If you take away the need to make a living you end up like the native Americans or Inuit or the Aboriginals whose way of life was confiscated by colonists and they thus lost their sense of purpose, often turning to drugs and alcohol..



I have always found it interesting that the north American Indian descended from the Mongol tribes. They also used to wander as Nomads to follow the food and had pointless fights with each other. However, they were eventually brought together by a strong leader Genghis Khan who eventually conquered much of the known world and used advanced Chinese technology and ideas. It leaves one wondering that, if the North American Indians had had a similar leader, then there future may have been different.

Dave
gcarth Plus
16 3.6k 1 United Kingdom
23 May 2020 11:16AM

Quote:It leaves one wondering that, if the North American Indians had had a similar leader, then there future may have been different.
Yes, though I suppose they would always have had a tough fight against the technological superiority of the white American colonialists. Sad
I suppose the NeoCon Free Market system is just another manifestation of Western colonialization, domination and exploitation - but the difference is that their agenda is to dominate the world - and of course it's already happened to a great extent. I'm not saying that the US and the West, generally, are always the bad guys - any impartial observer can see how many other nations have appalling human rights records and undemocratic or downright tyrannical governments.

Just one example of many were Free Market deregulation and privatisation has failed the people (except the super rich) is in the NHS.
So much of the NHS is already privatised and supplies outsourced and that's why PPE etc. has not been made available for the Corona crisis when and where needed. The NHS system is too fragmented, apparently - and no doubt causing much inefficiency and waste of resources.
Surely care homes should become under the umbrella of a more strongly regulated NHS and not just run for profit. They seemed to have had a pretty bad reputation before the pandemic inflicted such horrific devastation on them.

I'm sorry for being a bit of a gloom and doom merchant but I'm sure things could be so much better if only we hadn't gone down the path of privatising everything that moves.Sad
lemmy 13 2.8k United Kingdom
23 May 2020 11:28AM

Quote:Speaking as a "lefty", I think Harold was quite a wise old buffer. I wish we had more Tories like him now! He seemed to try to promote a less divided society than we have now.
I agree with that and everything you say in your post yet I would put myself a bit to the right of centre!

What I'm not is tribal and it is that that seems the major affliction of our society now. I've voted every which way in my time. I read the manifestos (and with no great hopes that it'll happen) vote according to what I think best. I've voted Lib/Dem the last couple of times, given that neither Labour nor Conservative represented my views in any way. My reason was that our MP is a very good constituency man and was fighting for some very necessary things in the locality.

The press, I worked in it for a long time. The notion that it has some sort of agenda is just too silly. Each paper has its point of view, knows what its readership is and goes to please them. It was the Telegraph that brought us the MPs expenses scandal, The Times the tax avoiders. No, they don't go for their owners in general but don't forget that it was The Sunday Times that brought up the Sky cycling team's drug accusations - Murdoch being the proprietor of both.

The OP was "has the world benefited from neocon/ free market economics?" The tribal answer is the same as for the press, the police, the Labour party, the Conservative party and everything else - a frothing at the mouth yes or no. The rational answer is "yes and no". But we live in an age where the level of ignorance is such that nuance and thought are seen as a weakness.
gcarth Plus
16 3.6k 1 United Kingdom
23 May 2020 2:16PM

Quote:What I'm not is tribal and it is that that seems the major affliction of our society now.
Well, that is admirable - though I have to confess that I am a bit tribal, in that I support Jeremy Corbyn's policies - i.e. redressing the balance over austerity cuts for the poor; nationalisation of certain services like the railways and return to an NHS that is not largely privatised.
I admire the Scandinavian model were there seems to be more equality, generally.

Quote:But we live in an age where the level of ignorance is such that nuance and thought are seen as a weakness.
Yes, I agree with much of what you say about the media. I admit to having been surprised by the mainstream media from time to time when they seem to contradict my usual low opinion of them! Of course, the media needs to satisfy the demand of the masses but I think it shares most of its core ethos with the "Establishment". I may be over-egging my argument, but the fact is that nearly all the media is owned and controlled by rich Tories. These owners and their editors mix with powerful people in government and the establishment generally.
In my opinion, for what it is worth on this complex issue, is that the media may not necessarily have an agenda as such, but I think there is this subconscious level where many journalists are conditioned to follow their editors and owners' thinking. Some journalists are allowed quite a bit of token leeway to be fairly radical as long as the paper is gaining readership numbers.
I don't know if the media is behaving any worse since the "Free Market" economic system but the media has certainly achieved its aim of destroying Corbyn's leadership career (If that wasn't an agenda and tribal and I don't know what is!)

That said, I agree that its not all about agenda but I believe that the mainstream media, though seeming to be fairly radical at times, operates within fairly narrow parameters of opinion and any dissention from those parameters is not permitted.
A case in point is the smearing, inhumane incarceration and unjust treatment of Julian Assange to whom his defence team, it is said, were not allowed proper access - just one example of many. There has been hardly any coverage of this breach of human rights in the mainstream media.
Then there are breaches of International law by other nations which are condemned by the West but when the West breaches International law... International law suddenly goes out of the window!









hobbo Plus
9 1.5k 3 England
24 May 2020 2:47AM
During these capitalism vs communism debates there is hardly ever a mention of super-rich puffed up celebs over whom the press of all colours fawn. Not a finger raised against soccer players, golfers, tennis players and other sports individuals who earn millions for playing ball....
Narry a mention of super-super rich Arabs, Russian oligarchs with yachts as big as apartment blocks, or, those who seem. To be sucking the life out of Africa, whilst pumping pleading advertisements for water or for child eye-care in tv adverts. Not forgetting the mafia, either.

There are very rich individuals who do good with their funds, philanthropy has existed for a very long time, many medieval charities are very rich and still function today... I know of private schools begun as such charities for the poor children of the parish, which now function as private schools for those who can afford the fees.....

My pet dislike are the individuals and those groups thinking themselves cleverer than others, continues spreading doom-gloom and negativity as widely as possible.... a deliberate act to dive and conquer...
they preach a better world for all, whilst living in relative luxury themselves.... without a hint of inner happiness or REAL care for others.... their message has been the same and will ever be so.

At my age, I have the experience of witnessing first hand what governments of all colours are capable of......
Left-right, nazis, fascists, the wartime Japanese, the pol-pot, the mau -mau, the current n Korea...isis, plus all the tin-pot military palace owning dictators, the Assad’s, and the putins.

Those who whitter on here about left and right fade into insignificance ... they prattle whilst the Earth burns.

There is no, magic wand...no utopia.... every generation, brings its ... own set of destroyers.

Hobbo
gcarth Plus
16 3.6k 1 United Kingdom
24 May 2020 9:48AM

Quote:During these capitalism vs communism debates there is hardly ever a mention of super-rich puffed up celebs over whom the press of all colours fawn. Not a finger raised against soccer players, golfers, tennis players and other sports individuals who earn millions for playing ball....
Narry a mention of super-super rich Arabs, Russian oligarchs with yachts as big as apartment blocks, or, those who seem. To be sucking the life out of Africa, whilst pumping pleading advertisements for water or for child eye-care in tv adverts. Not forgetting the mafia, either.

Well, Hobbo, I absolutely agree with you in your disapproval of the excesses of the above mentioned. The reason why I don't single out the above groups that you mention is that they are surely part of and have gained most from the "Free Market" system. We didn't hear about Russian oligarchs before we were hit with the Fee Market because the US imposition of Free Market economics is what brought about the oligarchs.

Quote:There are very rich individuals who do good with their funds, philanthropy has existed for a very long time, many medieval charities are very rich and still function today... I know of private schools begun as such charities for the poor children of the parish, which now function as private schools for those who can afford the fees.....
I agree with you again...that’s twice! Wow! Wink

Quote:At my age, I have the experience of witnessing first hand what governments of all colours are capable of......
Left-right, nazis, fascists, the wartime Japanese, the pol-pot, the mau -mau, the current n Korea...isis, plus all the tin-pot military palace owning dictators, the Assad’s, and the putins.

I wouldn't disagree with you there either.

Quote:My pet dislike are the individuals and those groups thinking themselves cleverer than others, continues spreading doom-gloom and negativity as widely as possible.... a deliberate act to divide and conquer...
Well, there are quite a few individuals like that in the media - supposed journalists that spread false information and negativity - and they are certainly not all on the left or right.
However, I think sometimes negativity and "smart a**e" attitudes can be confused with critical thinking. Without critical thinking society would not advance. The great Socrates famously said: "The unexamined life is not worth living".

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