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keithh Plus
14 25.4k 33 Wallis And Futuna
1 Feb 2012 1:31PM
mmmm....learning photography through the expressive moves of Krump.

run with it

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theorderingone 14 2.4k
1 Feb 2012 1:41PM

Boyd 14 11.2k 11 Wales
1 Feb 2012 1:49PM
Oh for goodness sake, it's 2012 and they're still using the double dream hands technique in photography workshops.
Nickscape 11 708 9 England
1 Feb 2012 1:55PM
You all seem to be giving Ian quite a hard time in this thread and it's not all justified, his original post has been twisted to focus on him, I'm not sure quite what he's done to upset you so much, perhaps not being on here very often I've missed this.

Ian, I think you need to realise that people will have their opinions and nothing you will say will ever change that opinion, that has always been the case on epz, there is after all only one way to approach photography. The comparison to the kitchen business has dragged on too far, I do agree that there are comparisons between the two. 8 years ago I could have picked up a camera and begun to learn photography and by now know plenty in order to teach the skills to others. Likewise I could have spent the money different & set up a wood working area in my garage and learnt the skills of joinery, and after 8 years begun to teach. The realistic difference between the two however is in the amount of people who have picked up a DSLR and learnt photography compared to those setting up machines for joinery - quite a difference I would imagine. Put an advert for a local bespoke kitchen fitter in the paper and see how many replies you would get compared to the hundreds you would get if looking for photography services from photographers who can't find work. The point I'm trying to make is that as Ian says it is far easier and much more popular to become a photographer which is why there are so many people now doing it.

I see that Keith and Ian both seem to charge the same for a place on a one day workshop which I find interesting. surely this is more to do with good business rather than teaching skills.

Quote:one of the reasons I cut back on the workshops I offered was that every Tom, **** and Harry with minimal experience and knowledge started offering to teach others.
I do hope you voice this to all of the others offering workshops through their websites. I've always wondered if anybody actually attends these one-to-one sessions with any of these photographers who offer the service? How do you get experience in running workshops without jumping in and setting up your own? Teachers gain their experience from teaching classes surely doing it yourself is just the same thing.

Quote:Why not leave all that to the professionals and simply enjoy your hobby?
That is a brilliant question Kathy and one I hope Ian will provide an answer to.
keithh Plus
14 25.4k 33 Wallis And Futuna
1 Feb 2012 2:10PM

Quote:I do hope you voice this to all of the others offering workshops through their websites.

I once wrote a blog on the subject - boy did that upset a few people.

Its not the gaining teaching experience through teaching, it's how quickly people pick up a camera before they decide they need to pass on their acquired knowledge. i chose Ian as an example of someone who is a cabinet maker by day and a photographer by Saturday. This ubiquitious new breed take money from the market just as editors try and get something for free - it's all draining out of the same pot.
thewilliam 9 6.1k
1 Feb 2012 3:00PM
I'm convinced that so many photographers offer training because it's becoming more difficult to make a living from DOING photography.

In the UK, we produce more graduates in photography that there are working full-time professional photographers in the whole of the EU. So many people want to learn photography because it's a wonderful way to earn a living.

Do what you love and you'll never have to work another day in your life!
ianrobinson 8 1.2k 8 United Kingdom
1 Feb 2012 7:50PM

Quote:You all seem to be giving Ian quite a hard time in this thread and it's not all justified, his original post has been twisted to focus on him, I'm not sure quite what he's done to upset you so much, perhaps not being on here very often I've missed this

Perhaps they are all friends and pros that think there the only ones that should make Money doing photography I really don't know, but to be fare I don't really care in all honesty I have had worse and you'll always get some that just do not like what you have to say.
To answer your question why I do photography to earn money is simple really, its called not putting all your eggs in one Basket, I seem to do rather well with the photography selling prints, canvases, doing portraits and doing weddings and I do this because I love doing it.
My Kitchen company runs well with out me there 6 days a week so I have time on my hands to invest into something else I love doing.
I am a business man and tend to think out side the box, I love making designing Kitchens and furniture but I also love photography and have a passion for that too, I also hold a lorry drivers License and the odd degree here and there.
I like to think that I can do more than one business and if I find I cannot I will not, until then I intend to make Money doing what ever the public want if I can produce it well and if the public like what i do for them..
I get off my behind and I work yet it seems that might be too much for some people.
I have never been shy of hard work I often work from 7am to 11-12pm midnight it is what I do, I have worked till 2am in the work shops to get Kitchens done for customers before now, one thing I can do is work, work rewards those who want to do it I believe.
But then we are getting off that subject again hey Smile
strawman 14 22.1k 16 United Kingdom
1 Feb 2012 11:40PM
No Ian its the fact that you missed the very obvious parallel going on in your approaches and the approach you are critiquing.

Hence the Woosh comments as it all looks to have gone over your head. Lets try one more time.

There are lots of businesses it is easy to get started in, but that is not the same as being able to make an offering that represents top quality. That applies to Photography, and Kitchen installation, and car mechanics there is a list. Some how you are not seeing it that way. There is more, please read your posts and the replies and see if you can start to see it.

Me I see too little return for effort from photography so I do other business activities. But I have watched people who love doing photography being driven out of business because they are competing with people who do photography for beer money or as a sideline subsidised by another business. So you having a pop at newspapers for dropping news togs while doing paying photography items as a sideline might be a tad pot calling kettle black.

I still think a few people can make good money from photography, but for the masses its an over-subscribed market with too many people clambering for the work at too low a margin level. And entry to the market has become easier. And there is a parallel in the bathroom and kitchen fitting market a it has never been easier to design such things and put them together from off-the shelf supplies and small amounts of fitting.

Can you see it yet???
KathyW 14 1.8k 12 Norfolk Island
2 Feb 2012 6:21PM
I am glad that you are doing so well Ian - very difficult to keep a business afloat in this day and age so hearing of someone who has two successful businesses is always heartening. Smile

Many photographers, even long-established ones, are finding it hard to make a living solely from photography now. No wonder they are somewhat resentful when others who already have full-time jobs, or other business interests, "muscle" in on their market. Very often the weekend photographers will undercut them because they don't actually need the money, it's just a nice bonus for them getting paid for something they enjoy doing. Even in the commercial sector of the business it's often found that there is a member of staff, or a "friend of a friend" who has a "really good" camera and will do the advertising or pack shots for them for a fraction of the price. The more photographers offer workshops and courses the less work there will be for them in the long term. *thinks to self* "hmmm work's dropping off because of all these weekend warriors out there with their cameras... what to do about it? I know! I'll start doing workshops so they know how to do it properly and make sure their photos have that professional touch"... Unfortunately I don't really consider myself qualified or experienced enough to teach others. Sad

The newspaper thing is nothing new... the local rags have always been notorious for their unwillingness to pay photographers. Even the big nationals won't pay for something if they can get it for nothing. I very much doubt if Archant's T&Cs will have much bearing on the income of most pros.
ianrobinson 8 1.2k 8 United Kingdom
2 Feb 2012 8:34PM
Nothing stopping anyone getting off there behind and making a living doing anything they want.
As far as i see it you have 2 choices the first feel sorry for yourself and resent others for doing well or get off your behind and start thinking of other things that can put the bread on the table.
No disrespect but i work hard to earn the money i do and therefore have no remorse in doing that for my family, if both business went under tomorrow i would think of doing something else and do it, survival of the fittest or workers so the case may be.
I wouldn't just lay down and be resentful i would do something about my predicament even get a job at Tescos if I had to just to tied me over, the fact is no point being resentful life is too short.

Look i really do feel for people who are finding times hard i really do but it is not my fault that we are in a mess in this Country, saying that I employ people who are earning well from me taking all the risks I think in my honest opinion I am doing some justice towards the current climate that this wonderful government is putting us all in.
As for the photography side and business there are so many opportunities to make money if your capable and quite frankly i feel confident that i can do photography well, i know i have more to learn but then i have more to learn doing cabinetry and will till the day i die with new technologies so to be fair I am not someone that is big headed enough to think he knows it all.
After all everyone learns from somewhere at some point and learns at different speeds, reading some of the comments suggest you think that the photography i do is rubbish and i am not and should not do it frankly, but then why have i got awards and and published photos in magazines and papers as well as lots of jobs doing this if my images were that bad.
I believe there's a market for what i do and if i believe that then i will pursue it, i see nothing wrong with that and do not feel remorse in any way for feeding my family the best way I can.
strawman 14 22.1k 16 United Kingdom
2 Feb 2012 9:29PM
I do not think the condition of the economy has much to do with it, the poor economics of photography as a business were just as valid back in the boom times. I too employ others and am involved in two businesses, one as a director, so I understand some of what you say. Some businesses are doing fine, the two I am involved in are having their best years for some time, 2009 was hard but in 2011 the benefits started to come in. Both are expanding. So not everything in the current market is gloom, just ask Apple for example Smile

and yes the market is as it is, in areas where supply outstrips demand then yes the prices tumble or people go bust/leave the market. I know I have left some markets, with personal regret but not from a business perspective. And I am involved in some activities where financially it makes no sense but there is more to life, sometimes as long as its cost neutral you are providing a service and keeping people employed its worth the effort.

So to come to photography it is possible to work at a lower margin if the photography business does not have to pay for the underlying costs, so you have a car and the basics income covered (even the gear) and photography is just a top up. If one or two do that then its not significant, but if a significant portion of the market do that then it erodes the returns for everyone and makes the photography only viable for a lot of people as an income top up.

There are two ways of looking at this. Either some people are coming into the market and driving the margin down such that it is no longer economic to work as a full time person doing that as a sole income or some people are working hard and everyone else should.

I am not a professional photographer, just pointing out the economics. If photography was your sole income would it work at your charge rates. i.e pay the rent buy the car, have a living wage???

It is not about your relative skill rather the economics of what people are doing as in the last 5 years or so a lot of people have rushed into doing photography and quite a few who once made a living from it no longer can. I know of 3 who have retired and another who has moved to a different form a photography.
ianrobinson 8 1.2k 8 United Kingdom
2 Feb 2012 10:27PM

Quote:I do not think the condition of the economy has much to do with it

Can i borrow your rose tinted glasses.....

And are you in government? tell that to those who lost there jobs in 2010-2011 and still are.

well my next adventure is in solar panels as the Government are rewarding that sector very well indeed you never know the way they are throughing money at that i might be a millionaire this time next year Smile either that or my name will be RodneyTongue.
2 Feb 2012 10:33PM
do you want me to tell you how to change your user name now or later then Wink

the government are far from rewarding the solar panel industry, in fact as soon as the FIT cut was announced 4500 people lost their jobs.
ianrobinson 8 1.2k 8 United Kingdom
2 Feb 2012 10:40PM
oh look government again lol say no more.
ianrobinson 8 1.2k 8 United Kingdom
2 Feb 2012 10:41PM
yet government have nothing to do with business oh nooooooo. rose tinted glasses and all that.Wink

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