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Should voting in the General Election be made compulsory?


Chris_L 7 5.5k United Kingdom
15 Dec 2019 1:52AM
Garth, you're talking about the CPRA, I bet if you didn't like the report you'd scoff at how many people were involved and how incomplete and unscientific the whole thing is. It's not worth the paper it isn't printed on. They highlighted a few examples - what about the whole report?

You are the worst person I know for deciding something is truthful and the source is reputable based on whether you like what it says or not!

10 volunteers from an industry that is reeling from the effect of social media, retweets, easy Facebook ad management tools that let anyone choose audiences to target. I wonder how hard they looked at Labour? A self proclaimed expert Claire Hardaker (who writes for left wing newspapers) is the name that stood out to me.

They found Labour telling lies on Jeremy Corbyn's own Twitter account. It's in the report:

Since the start of the election campaign, a team of 10 volunteers from the campaign group sifted through social media ad libraries, party timelines and physical party leaflets.

It picked out examples of material the volunteers thought were problematic and then cross-referenced the claims with the work of fact-checking organisations.

It then collated an example list of 31 separate items judged to transgress the code of commercial marketing.

This included:

a Conservative Party tweet that featured a video of Labour's Keir Starmer, in which his replies to questions about Brexit had been edited out. The Coalition said this was "misleading"

a Liberal Democrat post featuring a bar chart putting the Lib Dems in second place to the Conservatives, but no information as to whether the underlying data came from polls or earlier election results. Without this the results were not "meaningful" said the Coalition

a Brexit Party ad that said five million Labour voters had voted to leave the EU. The Coalition noted that "precise figures do not exist", adding that most estimates put the number at between three to four million

a Labour Party post that said a sell-out deal with Donald Trump could mean giving £500m a week to big drugs companies. The Coalition said the sum was a "rough calculation" based on a "fairly extreme scenario"

The group said the examples that it had highlighted - which included both paid and unpaid ads, most online but some offline - should not be regarded as being comprehensive, meaning there were likely to be other cases it had not spotted.
hobbo Plus
10 1.7k 4 England
15 Dec 2019 3:57AM
I have said this previously.... Garth just loves putting in the spoon, then stirring it vigorously, he thrives on all the opinions and feedback received, his ploy in almost every case is to take is to comment negatively, no matter what....then....occasionally he will emphasise, or appear to, just to keep his bit of debate going.

As a philosopher, his arguments are endless, and mostly without any real substance, or bite, Iím sure he isnít a bitter and twisted lefty like many, instead, he is a mischief maker in chief. You donít believe me? Then go back over his posts to see.... the evidence is there....itís the truth you see 🤓

Garth....I award you the EPZ WOODEN WAFFLE SPOON for 2019.....

Hobbo
Carabosse 18 41.6k 270 England
15 Dec 2019 4:38AM

Quote:Garth....I award you the EPZ WOODEN WAFFLE SPOON for 2019


Very well deserved - congrats Garth! stirring-light.jpg

DaveRyder Plus
7 5.5k 10 United Kingdom
15 Dec 2019 8:04AM
Ive enjoyed reading the two main election (and formally EU reforendum) discussions on here.
A no time has the discussion decended into acrymonious name calling or direct personal attacks as I've seen so much of over the last few years.

So conclusion.. Photographers are a tolerant group who have concideration for others views. Photographs for Government. Smile
15 Dec 2019 9:02AM
Chris do you agree with the aims of CRPA ?

Why shouldn't political ads been held to the same standard as all other advertising?
Chris_L 7 5.5k United Kingdom
15 Dec 2019 10:04AM
Yes I do and yes they should. I hope my post did not make it look as if I thought otherwise.

We could do with fact checking in forum posts, Garth's painting CRPA as if they are the Advertising Standards Authority for the internet age or that their work is authoritative, or that they are official - they are more CRAP at the minute as it's been an experimental, non-scientific test with resources that could never give an accurate picture of what happened. A useful test. Not results which you cite as being accurate. They say so themselves.

Garth, do you really believe that if you removed the tweets and ads that CRPA found fault with that Jeremy Corbyn would have been the one with the huge majority.Or that if everyone was compelled to vote then that would have scuppered Boris? Are you going to suggest Best of Three?

JC and the shadow chancellor accept that it was because people are sick of the neverendum and want Brexit done.



gcarth Plus
17 4.0k 1 United Kingdom
15 Dec 2019 10:31AM

Quote:NO to Compulsory Voting!!!

Sorry Chris but when did I ever say that there should be compulsory voting? I'm strongly against compulsory voting!
What is the connection between Proportional Representation and compulsory voting?
I'm not being awkward but I honestly don't understand why you bring up compulsory voting - Surely it has nothing to do with compulsory voting, does it? It is surely up to political parties to present a good enough reason to vote for that party. I think we agree on that? (Let me know if you don't agree on that).

I'm not advocating full democracy because that is impossible in modern states with big populations.
That's why we have a representative democracy.


Quote:Q) PM Johnson has asked: Which traditional country pursuit should we allow to return first - a) Fox Hunting or b) Badger Baiting? a/b Vote NOW

Q) Should ITN scrap Channel 4 News and the money that is saved used to fund more Love Island? y/n Vote NOW

Q) Should we close BBC News and use the money that is saved for more EastEnders, Mrs Brown's Boys and movies with car chases? Vote NOW y/n

What has that got to do with Proportional Representation? That is simply imposing referenda on every issue under the sun - that's a separate issue.
I would have thought the list of options you describe sounds more like the Political Correctness obsession that we are already stuck with.Smile

Quote:Trust the people? I hope you're joking Garth.

Well, on balance - yes I do. I think they got the election horribly wrong - they were lied to and confused at every turn.
The simulated Proportional Representation result seems to suggest a more rational explanation for the Tory landslide (assuming the calculations are accurate).
So you may not trust the people but why would you trust any unnaccountable ruling elite - right or left leaning?
15 Dec 2019 10:34AM

Quote:We could do with fact checking in forum posts, Garth's painting CRPA as if they are the Advertising Standards Authority for the internet age or that their work is authoritative, or that they are official
I dont think he's quite doing that. CRPA do have cross-party support - not something you see regularly. We are in an era where our data is being weaponised and reliable scrutiny of it is still in its infancy - I dont think it should be dismissed just because it cannot be 100% accurate, and it is easy to hide what is happening, afterall Facebook has even removed from ads from their ad library.

Farage has said that without Facebook Brexit, Trump and the Italian elections would not have happened.

But there also political propaganda like this :
Tories fake news scam

Our media has a duty to report the truth, not distort the facts.

One newspaper that we have to give credit to trying to cut through the fake news is the Yorkshire Post. The editors response to a regular reader Do not believe a stranger on social media who disappears into the night...
gcarth Plus
17 4.0k 1 United Kingdom
15 Dec 2019 10:36AM

Quote:Ive enjoyed reading the two main election (and formally EU reforendum) discussions on here.
A no time has the discussion decended into acrymonious name calling or direct personal attacks as I've seen so much of over the last few years.

So conclusion.. Photographers are a tolerant group who have concideration for others views. Photographs for Government. Smile

Much appreciated, Dave.Smile (though there have been a few bruises at times!) but not with you, I hopeSmile
gcarth Plus
17 4.0k 1 United Kingdom
15 Dec 2019 11:02AM

Quote:Garth, do you really believe that if you removed the tweets and ads that CRPA found fault with that Jeremy Corbyn would have been the one with the huge majority.
No. However there may well have been a hung parliament.

Quote:Or that if everyone was compelled to vote then that would have scuppered Boris? Are you going to suggest Best of Three?


No. I have never ever advocated compulsory voting!

Chris_L 7 5.5k United Kingdom
15 Dec 2019 11:31AM

Quote:Sorry Chris but when did I ever say that there should be compulsory voting? I'm strongly against compulsory voting!

Sorry Garth I got the wrong end of the stick on compulsory voting

Quote:What is the connection between Proportional Representation and compulsory voting?
No idea, never mentioned PR.

Quote:I'm not being awkward but I honestly don't understand why you bring up compulsory voting - Surely it has nothing to do with compulsory voting, does it? It is surely up to political parties to present a good enough reason to vote for that party. I think we agree on that? (Let me know if you don't agree on that).

We need to find out who brought up compulsory voting on this forum. Wasn't me.

Yes it's up to parties to get us to vote for them but I have not been able to in a way, I'm going to bring up PR, in a way, I have always lived in a super strong Labour seat, I have always felt disenfranchised, that my vote never counted. Even if I wanted Labour, which I usually did, there was no still point looking at the Lib Dem policies or what the Greens were saying or what an Independent might be standing for as there was always, what seemed like 20k ex miners and their families, who didn't look at the policies either and voted for the party their ancestors voted for. We got lazy MPs and lazy Opposition candidates and a vicious circle as the Labour governments looked after their marginal constituencies before they looked after us. PR never comes because the party in power who could bring it in - don't need it. It's for the Liberals and also rans, who should have insisted it was part of a coalition deal and they missed a great opportunity. Not so sure it would be that good anyway, seems like more hung parliaments?

Answersonapostcard, I do not disagree with all you say about fake news, Facebook, misleading ads etc. I agree.

The reason I take such a position on CPRA is that they are just dipping a toe in the water, the things were examples, they say they are non-partisan but that is not the same thing as having cross-party support. Don't encourage Garth to take them too seriously otherwise he'll be extrapolating what they said to suggest all sorts of stuff.


Quote:However there may well have been a hung parliament.
Sad Too late!
No there would not have been.

Life long Labour voters who wanted to get rid of this Brexit shambles looked at Boris and Jeremy, they would not trust Boris to be alone with their partner but would be happy for Jeremy to take her away on a bird watching holiday and they would loan him a few hundred quid for the trip if he needed it knowing he would pay it back cos he's a man of principle. They would be wary of lending a tenner to Boris.

They didn't want dithering, they wanted it over with and they voted Tory. They didn't believe Tory hype or Labour hype enough that they would have voted the other way without it.


gcarth Plus
17 4.0k 1 United Kingdom
15 Dec 2019 12:32PM

Quote:Sorry Garth I got the wrong end of the stick on compulsory voting
Apology accepted.Smile

Quote:PR never comes because the party in power who could bring it in - don't need it.

I would put it a little stronger than that, Chris. PR never comes because the party in power really doesn't want it.
The Labour Party and the Conservative Parties have always rejected PR. Anyway, I think we are pretty much in agreement there. (hopefully!).

Quote:No there would not have been.


How can you be so dogmatic?
You can only be correct if the PR simulation I quoted is inaccurate. Why should you assume it is inaccurate before you can even supply evidence for your assertion?
Look, I'm not interested in scoring points - I'm trying to give you perfectly reasonable arguments.

Quote:They didn't want dithering, they wanted it over with and they voted Tory. They didn't believe Tory hype or Labour hype enough that they would have voted the other way without it.

I agree with that but that is not an argument against the result of the PR simulation - Your argument is simply a statement of what actually happened and the reasons - which I largely agree with..
Chris_L 7 5.5k United Kingdom
15 Dec 2019 1:59PM
Not again.

Read properly please.

I said: "Garth, do you really believe that if you removed the tweets and ads that CRPA found fault with that Jeremy Corbyn would have been the one with the huge majority".

You said: "No. However there may well have been a hung parliament" To which I replied "No there would not have been."

With me so far?

Then you've brought in a PR simulation which I've not commented on or included in what I've said above, where've I mentioned that?


Quote:How can you be so dogmatic?
You can only be correct if the PR simulation I quoted is inaccurate. Why should you assume it is inaccurate before you can even supply evidence for your assertion?
Look, I'm not interested in scoring points - I'm trying to give you perfectly reasonable arguments.


Why can't what I said be correct? Look at what I said, rather than what you imagined I said. Notice I don't mention PR, just adverts and what difference the lies from both sides made to the overall results. I say zilch about PR.

These are good value, filter blue too

Have we managed to find out who mentioned compulsory voting yet? Mystery isn't it?



Chris_L 7 5.5k United Kingdom
15 Dec 2019 2:08PM
Worked it out, it was you Garth who brought up the subject of Compulsory Voting by creating a subject in the Healthy Debate forum which you called "Should Voting In The General Election Be Made Compulsory" and which is one of the subjects at the top of the forum list. Love to hear how you justify saying you never brought up the subject of compulsory voting but I know you will give it a shot Smile

You missed the point of my post by thinking it had something to do with political correctness. Maybe too subtle.

Quote:I would have thought the list of options you describe sounds more like the Political Correctness obsession that we are already stuck with

I'm saying all the chavs would vote to knock down all the "stupid old buildings 100y+" and replace them with giant Primarks and McDonald's joints.

What we should do is not allow people to vote who are thick lol. I'm joking Wink

gcarth Plus
17 4.0k 1 United Kingdom
15 Dec 2019 2:18PM

Quote:With me so far?
Frankly, No.
You said there would not have been a hung parliament and I would agree that is the probability.
However, what I said was that there could have been a hung parliament without the lies in those ads (admittedly unlikely).
I don't want to get into more unnecessary arguments with you. I really think you are the one who needs to re-read what I say.Smile





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