Small Minded Race Steward - Mare and foal die

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Reason : Run it’s course - getting too personal


rhody 17 2.8k 2 United Kingdom
21 May 2019 10:02AM
LenShepherd - I agree that there are morons on 2 & 4 wheels.
What I object to is going for a quiet walk in public park on a narrow path (not a road) with a time trial cyclist approaching at high speed from behind, who waits till he is close then shouts "Coming through" at the top of his or her voice.
That is very aggressive behaviour indeed. Meaning "Get out of my way" or else.
People on the narrow path may be hard of hearing, especially with someone approaching them at high speed from behind. A bell is more polite than just shouting "Coming through" which is a statement of determined intent.
Cyclists complain when motorists whizz past them in close proximity, don't give them enough space, are going too fast and ignore the Highway Code.
Yet some cyclists seem incapable of applying those standards to their own behaviour.
Cyclists need to be prepared to "Stop or slow down" for pedestrians but many seem to think they have the right to shout at people to get out of their way in case their journey or time trial is disrupted.
I do agree that the Park Police Force need to be more proactive in dealing with the cycling problem before a pedestrian is injured.

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Tianshi_angie 4 2.6k England
21 May 2019 11:15AM
Len Shepherd - do you realise that Richmond Park is a deer park and these animals are not even aware of the Highway Code let alone have read it. Many families take little ones to see the deer and they are aware that they should stay well away as they are wild - not domesticated animals. I am afraid to say that it was Dave Weir who started this trend of Professional cyclists using Richmond Park for practice but having seen him on a number of occasions I cannot hold him responsible in any way for the attitude which I have seen. He was, on every occasion, careful and polite. The roads which lead to the residents' homes lead nowhere else so not a through route to anywhere. And the residents include Princess Alexander and The Royal Ballet School. There are paths designed for both cyclists and walkers (families) and this has, until recently worked extremely well with no problems on either side. With explosion of time trials it means these paths have had to be excluded from family walks. Personally I would be quite happy for cyclists doing time trials to have a fixed period of time - early morning or late evening - when there are unlikely to be families wanting to walk through the park, but until then my thoughts are that time triallers should observe the assumed function of these paths and allow a happy relaxed time for everyone to enjoy. BTW they are NOT roads!
LenShepherd 11 4.0k United Kingdom
21 May 2019 2:05PM

Quote:Len Shepherd - do you realise that Richmond Park is a deer park and these animals are not even aware of the Highway Code let alone have read it. Many families take little ones to see the deer and they are aware that they should stay well away as they are wild - not domesticated animals.

I perhaps realise more than you do.
The Park is an SSSI and London's largest Nature reserve.
It is also a "multi-use venue"
From the web site
"Try your hand at power kiting, horse riding or golf, or hire a bike for some off-road cycling along the Tamsin Trail.

(snipped)

Did you know?
Richmond Park has protected status as an important habitat for wildlife and is a National Nature Reserve, London's largest Site of Special Scientific Interest and a European Special Area of Conservation."
No mention here of the Royal Ballet being based within its walls in this website quote.


Quote: I am afraid to say that it was Dave Weir who started this trend of Professional cyclists using Richmond Park for practice

Interestingly Wikipedia mentions one cycling club which has used the Park for training for about 30 years.
Whether currently correct is unclear.
There are relatively few professional cyclists in the UK - and most are based on the Continent which is where most teams are based and most professional racing takes place.
Pro's generally have an easy ride the day after the event, and then training rides in excess of 100 miles which are not possible in Richmond Parks.
Perhaps you are applying a "professional" label to those who are not professional

Quote: but having seen him on a number of occasions I cannot hold him responsible in any way for the attitude which I have seen. He was, on every occasion, careful and polite.

Many cyclists are similar

Quote: The roads which lead to the residents' homes lead nowhere else so not a through route to anywhere. And the residents include Princess Alexander and The Royal Ballet School.

Are you implying cyclists, pedestrians and motorists have no right to pass along the cul-de-sac on which I live - unless they live on the cul-de-sac?
The end of the cul-de-sac has first class photographic views.

Quote: There are paths designed for both cyclists and walkers (families) and this has, until recently worked extremely well with no problems on either side. With explosion of time trials it means these paths have had to be excluded from family walks. Personally I would be quite happy for cyclists doing time trials to have a fixed period of time - early morning or late evening - when there are unlikely to be families wanting to walk through the park, but until then my thoughts are that time triallers should observe the assumed function of these paths and allow a happy relaxed time for everyone to enjoy. BTW they are NOT roads!

You seem out of touch with reality.
Cycle time trails, road races, cycle cross etc require either police permission (if a highway) or the land-owners permission and authorisation from the appropriate cycling governing body who require appropriate safety procedures.
Time trials are usually scheduled to start around 6 am when traffic and pedestrian activity is low.
If any are authorised in the Park (which I doubt) the Park police would be involved, marshalls and boundary fencing around the course, with marshalled pedestrian crossing points for a circuit event would be required.
Looking at a similar park (Sutton Coldfield) these safety procedures take place for occasional cycle-cross events, with much more closed off areas when once used for an RAC Rally stage.
Public rights of way etc include more than routes which you perhaps mistakenly presume are a "road".
keithh 15 25.5k 33 Wallis And Futuna
21 May 2019 2:23PM
Kind of defending something you know, in truth, without google, very little about.

The cyclists in Richmond Park are a pain in the 'arris. Many are, in essence, time trialling, as they are trying to better 'unofficial' times for x number of laps. You also understand what the lady refers to as 'professional' cyclists, as a great number are also members of road racing clubs and I'm sure regard themselves as more than weekend potterers. Large numbers of these cyclists go around Richmond as though they are the primary user of the facility and I have witnessed their anger when a stray pedestrian or car has dared to ruin that lap time.


Quote:Time trials are usually scheduled to start around 6 am when traffic and pedestrian activity is low


I'm assuming, therefore, that 12/24 hour or 100 mile trials are a thing of the past.
LenShepherd 11 4.0k United Kingdom
21 May 2019 4:56PM

Quote:Kind of defending something you know, in truth, without google, very little about.


I do know a lot about cyclists, including road racing on the continent when I was younger.
IF what you say is true of all or any cyclists most photographers and most of the public have a phone with a video facility to record it.
As has been mentioned early there is a residents group and Park Police - who should be taking action if what you say carries reasonable substance.
That they seem not to be taking action indicates perhaps you significantly exaggerate Sad


Quote:
The cyclists in Richmond Park are a pain in the 'arris. Many are, in essence, time trialling, as they are trying to better 'unofficial' times for x number of laps. You also understand what the lady refers to as 'professional' cyclists, as a great number are also members of road racing clubs and I'm sure regard themselves as more than weekend potterers. Large numbers of these cyclists go around Richmond as though they are the primary user of the facility and I have witnessed their anger when a stray pedestrian or car has dared to ruin that lap time.


There are NO UK road racing clubs Sad
When training, joggers often try to improve on their personal best time Grin
You seem to alter your definition of time trialing to suit your purpose Wink Perhaps not exactly 10 out of 10 for integrity.

Quote:

Quote:Time trials are usually scheduled to start around 6 am when traffic and pedestrian activity is low


I'm assuming, therefore, that 12/24 hour or 100 mile trials are a thing of the past.


Once again your assumption is not sound.
A 12 hour time trial with the last rider finishing 2 hours after the first takes from 6 am to 8 pm - achievable in the middle of summer Wink
24 hour time require lights etc.
In all time trials on public roads there is a marshal at every junction to tell the cyclist which way to turn - but not to interfere in any way with the movement of any other traffic.

As mentioned earlier in the thread their are some cyclists who behave like idiots, some motorists who behave like idiots and even some people who often act like idiots.
This does not mean that all people should be confined to indoors, all motoring should be banned and all cycling should be banned.
Tianshi_angie 4 2.6k England
21 May 2019 8:00PM
No-one said that ALL cyclists should be banned. Or anything else should be banned. No-one said time triallers should be banned - just respect the norms of the park which have been in operation long before some cyclists discovered it. If they all behaved as they should (by law) then there would not be a problem and no-one could be happier than me at the fact that all is peace and quiet and quite relaxing!

keithh 15 25.5k 33 Wallis And Futuna
22 May 2019 8:23AM

Quote:There are NO UK road racing clubs

So there are no cycling clubs in the UK who organise racing events on public roads? (asking as an ex-member of Doncaster Wheelers)

There's a bank holiday coming up, Len...why not pop down to Richmond Park and experience the exaggeration for your self. As you said, the park is shared space, its just that a great many of cyclists using it, seem to think that they have a larger share.
Tianshi_angie 4 2.6k England
22 May 2019 9:31AM
273254_1558513861.jpg



From Cycling Weekly - cycling clubs in Great Britain.
LenShepherd 11 4.0k United Kingdom
22 May 2019 5:53PM

Quote:Justin C - I'm afraid you are mistaken, or have just been fortunate enough never to experience this sort of behaviour. It may also be that if you are able bodied and can walk across grass then you do not see the cyclists on the paths.


I have been in contact with several wildlife photographers who regularly visit the park.
Their experience (and several others posting) is contrary to yours.
The photographers tell me while an occasional issue with a cyclist - though rare - is not unknown; they have far more problem incidents involving uncontrolled children and dogs off a lead than all other groups of visitor combined.
I am fully satisfied you grossly exaggerate. Some of your comments imply to me that you do not like any cyclist.
keithh 15 25.5k 33 Wallis And Futuna
22 May 2019 7:22PM
That's because yet again you haven't a clue what the problem being described is.
Standing in the middle.of the park pointing a camera at a deer is removed from where the problem is taking place.

After supposedly contacting some so called wildlife photographers, you have decided there is no problem, what with wildlife photographers being the definitive cyclist experts.
rhody 17 2.8k 2 United Kingdom
22 May 2019 8:31PM
I can see why wildlife photographers don't like out of control kids and dogs in the Park.
Much the same with pedestrians, out for a quiet walk in the Park and aggressive cyclists, approaching at high speed from behind shouting "Coming through" as they weave in and out of families with inches to spare.
Cyclists complain about motorists not giving them enough space yet they seem to forget that aspect of common courtesy as they whizz past pedestrians on the narrow paths in the Park.
Instead of being prepared to slow down or stop when approaching pedestrians, as stated in the Highway Code, they seem to think that travelling menacingly at high speed, approaching from behind and shouting "Coming through" means pedestrians must scatter before them so the cyclists journey is not slowed down in any way.
LenShepherd 11 4.0k United Kingdom
22 May 2019 9:05PM

Quote:I can see why wildlife photographers don't like out of control kids and dogs in the Park.
Much the same with pedestrians, out for a quiet walk in the Park and aggressive cyclists, approaching at high speed from behind shouting "Coming through" as they weave in and out of families with inches to spare.
Cyclists complain about motorists not giving them enough space yet they seem to forget that aspect of common courtesy as they whizz past pedestrians on the narrow paths in the Park.
Instead of being prepared to slow down or stop when approaching pedestrians, as stated in the Highway Code, they seem to think that travelling menacingly at high speed, approaching from behind and shouting "Coming through" means pedestrians must scatter before them so the cyclists journey is not slowed down in any way.


The Park Police could take action if the problem is as bad as you say.
They seem not to be doing anything - and presumable the residents committee are not bring pressure to bear on them.
This implies those in charge better understand than perhaps you do how cyclists and pedestrians can safely mix.
Where cyclists and pedestrians mix, pedestrians should be on the look out for cyclists approaching from in front or behind as well as cyclists looking out for pedestrians.
When a pedestrian is not keeping a reasonable look-out a friendly "coming through" by a cyclist enables the cyclist to pass with reasonable safety, especially if the pedestrian moves to their nearside - as advised in the Highway Code.
"Coming through" is usually accompanied by sitting up on a bike so that the pedestrian can better be forewarned without shouting, accompanied by hands on the brakes.
keithh 15 25.5k 33 Wallis And Futuna
22 May 2019 10:01PM
I spoke to a couple of dog walkers who say they have never caused a problem to Richmond Park ‘wildlife’ photographers and if their dog was ever off it’s lead in their proximity, they would shout a warning and stand upright.

We know what cyclists should do, we know what should happen but we also know, as regular visitors, what does happen. You seem to know a lot about what doesn’t happen.
LenShepherd 11 4.0k United Kingdom
23 May 2019 2:28PM

Quote:
Quote:There are NO UK road racing clubs

So there are no cycling clubs in the UK who organise racing events on public roads? (asking as an ex-member of Doncaster Wheelers)

There's a bank holiday coming up, Len...why not pop down to Richmond Park and experience the exaggeration for your self. As you said, the park is shared space, its just that a great many of cyclists using it, seem to think that they have a larger share.


Please - re-read what I said - and ideally stick to the truth.
You quoted what I said Grin
There are no UK racing clips - as in primarily for road racing.
You probably know cycling racing on public is controlled by an Act of Parliament setting out the guidelines - in co-operation the road race and time trial umbrella organisations - and the police.
A club running perhaps 1 or 2 races a year, with police permission, in addition to regular club weekly (or more often) club rides, social events etc is not a road racing club.
Are you going to deny Doncaster Wheelers have club runs, some of which get to cafes close to where I live?
LenShepherd 11 4.0k United Kingdom
23 May 2019 2:42PM

Quote:I spoke to a couple of dog walkers who say they have never caused a problem to Richmond Park ‘wildlife’ photographers and if their dog was ever off it’s lead in their proximity, they would shout a warning and stand upright.

Now you seem to be manipulating facts, perhaps with the intention of painting all cyclists in a bad light.
2 dog owners are hardly a representative segment of dog owners visiting into the park - especially if they do not appreciate how a dog off a lead can disturb wildlife - which can be an offence in Richmond Pard because, among several things, it is an SSSI.

[quote[ We know what cyclists should do, we know what should happen but we also know, as regular visitors, what does happen. You seem to know a lot about what doesn’t happen.


You seem to know a lot about activity that the residents group and park police seem unconcerned about.

Putting you into the land of reality 12 mph on a bicycle is a modest riding speed.
3-4 mph is a common walking speed except with young children.
Cyclists are likely to frequently pass walkers perhaps slowing down to 10 mph while so doing if the walkers have not followed the Highway Code and moved over to the nearside.

If you are so convinced "thousands of cyclists" are traveling at 40 mph (a bit difficult off tarmac even if down-hill) why not raise it with the residents committee and the park police?