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Small Minded Race Steward - Mare and foal die

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Reason : Run it’s course - getting too personal


keithh 16 25.5k 33 Wallis And Futuna
23 May 2019 2:43PM
Priceless, Len, just priceless. Let's pedantically pick over the bones of the would-be argument and ignore what it was actually about.

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LenShepherd 11 4.1k United Kingdom
24 May 2019 8:31AM

Quote:Priceless, Len, just priceless. Let's pedantically pick over the bones of the would-be argument and ignore what it was actually about.


The debate seems to be about

1/ If there is more than an occasional issue - maybe part a perception issue because some walkers do not keep a look out where there is a mix of cycling and walking - the park police and the residents groups seem not to be taking action.

2/ Do a few posters not like anything to do with cycling?
rhody 17 2.8k 2 United Kingdom
24 May 2019 9:28AM
The problem I have with cyclists on the paths in Richmond Park, from personal experience, is approaching pedestrians from behind at high speed. A group of pedestrians walking and talking do not hear the cyclists approaching. Cyclists are required to be prepared to "Slow down or stop" when approaching pedestrians. The aggressive cyclists in the Park do not show any intention of slowing down or stopping for the pedestrians they share the path with. Everyone else in the Park has to give way to them in their mind.
Cyclists should think about why they complain about motorists for not giving them enough space and driving to close to them because the bad cyclists in the Park are doing exactly the same to pedestrians.
In reality, they shout "Coming through" when they already very close to the pedestrians. They cycle aggressively and shout their intention in a very intimidating manner.
Of course pedestrians need to be aware of cyclists but the aggressive cyclists are a real nuisance to anyone on foot and once you have seen them in action, they have no intention of slowing down or stopping for anyone.
Cyclists cannot demand respect from motorists and then ignore the dangers they present to pedestrians by cycling so aggressively.
What I will do next time is record a movie of the aggressive ones and give it to the Park Police for their records. Perhaps if more people did that, with movie evidence to support their claims, the Park Police would actually do something about it before someone is badly injured by speeding cyclists ignoring the Highway Code on how to cycle safely.
keithh 16 25.5k 33 Wallis And Futuna
24 May 2019 9:32AM
Or, do cyclists not pay enough attention when cycling through a busy recreational space. True that often pedestrians do not look or may think they have time to cross but i’ve seen car drivers, slow and stop to allow people to cross....I’ve never seen a cyclist do the same. Oh actually I did but his impatience was clear to see.

Who told you the Park Police (actually part of the Met) don’t do nothing regarding speeding cyclists? You are mis-informed

What resident groups are you referring to? Unless you mean Friends of Richmond Park who have been very vocal on occasion regarding cycling events and individuals.

Am I anti-cyclist - nope, my first ‘real’ bike was a Pennine Swaledale and I continue to ride to this day.
LenShepherd 11 4.1k United Kingdom
24 May 2019 12:47PM

Quote:The problem I have with cyclists on the paths in Richmond Park, from personal experience, is approaching pedestrians from behind at high speed. A group of pedestrians walking and talking do not hear the cyclists approaching. Cyclists are required to be prepared to "Slow down or stop" when approaching pedestrians.

If walkers are not taking reasonable heed of their surroundings in mixed traffic situations (which you seem to be advocating) do you choose to ignore that a call of "coming through" is part of preparing to slow down?
lemmy 12 2.8k United Kingdom
24 May 2019 4:20PM
I live 10 minutes from Richmond Park and go ther several times a week as I have since the late 60s. The big problem in the park are the cars which really shouldn't be there at all, especially as many are just using it as a rat run.

Cyclsts, there is the occasional rotter but no more than drivers using mobile phones and driving one handed or speeding. The idea that they go at 40mph is just too silly. The average professional in the Tour de France can attain 25mph on the flat. There is no hill long enough or steep enough in the park to to maintain 40mph, certainly not for amateurs

The dogs cause a problem because the occasional owner thinks it funny when their pet panics the deer. You will also note that the Pen Ponds, once teeming with bird life, now have virtually none. There is a notice there saying dogs must be kept on a lead. I challenge anyone to find any of those nice middle class folk who have their dogs on a lead,

Richmond Park is a great haven and photographic location (no tripods!) and most people who use it are perfectly reasonable and respect it. The few who don't respect it let everyone down but to imply that they are representative is a pretty sour view of life and not true.
Martin54 13 546 United Kingdom
25 May 2019 12:51PM
Anyone in any doubt about how many cyclist are using Richmond Park for personal time trialling/challenges should check out Strava

39522_1558784911.jpg



Over 11,000 circuits so far this year, average speeds over 40 km/h, with maximums well in excess of this

39522_1558784920.jpg

LenShepherd 11 4.1k United Kingdom
25 May 2019 4:56PM

Quote:Anyone in any doubt about how many cyclist are using Richmond Park for personal time trialling/challenges should check out Strava


There seem 2 issues being what might, or might not be going on, and how many are involved in the statistics you have located..

You refer to use of the tarmac Olympic road circuit - where cars are normal - rather than the path/cycling/horses routs which concern some.

The average of 73 a day mentioned in your source is a lot less than the number of cars Grin

It is interesting the BBC arranged filming of David Millar's attempt to set a record speed - when the route was quiet - on a £5,000 bike with "easy to puncture" tubs or clinchers.
Only about the top 12 average speeds mentioned seem above the speed limit. That implies 99.989% were below the average speed limit.

I expect there are plenty of marathon runners trying to improve on the times in a similar way - including some on the main tarmac road. I did this when I was road running in Somerset.

"Rat run" motorists have been mentioned.
In Sutton Coldfied Park this issue was eliminated decades ago by closing 100 yard stretches in the middle of the Park to motor vehicles.

It is easy enough if the cycling problem is as serious as some perceive to introduce plenty of speed bumps etc on the main tarmac roadway.

As examples of "action that works" Somerset introduced 30mph speed limits on twisting country roads that motorcyclists liked, and Wiltshire started grading unsurfaced roads to a standard Grandad and Gradma could use in a Morris Minor.

In North Yorkshire, where neither has been done, off road motor vehicles and a few "hothead" motorcyclists head for the most challenging routes they can find. Driving by car and cycling in the Yorkshire Dales I find over 95% of motorcyclist drive responsibly.

Richmond Park is not a challenging cycling route, and is certainly OK for an average cyclist. Whether some of the "average walkers" can handle 4 cyclists an hour on specifically lightweight bikes travelling on the tarmac at no more than the tarmac 20 mph speed limit during Park opening hours (and many more cars) is an interesting topic.
Martin54 13 546 United Kingdom
25 May 2019 6:11PM
There are other segments across the park that are very popular and definitely aren't Olympic road race circuits if you care to look into the information available on Strava
rhody 17 2.8k 2 United Kingdom
25 May 2019 9:22PM

Quote:
Quote:The problem I have with cyclists on the paths in Richmond Park, from personal experience, is approaching pedestrians from behind at high speed. A group of pedestrians walking and talking do not hear the cyclists approaching. Cyclists are required to be prepared to "Slow down or stop" when approaching pedestrians.

If walkers are not taking reasonable heed of their surroundings in mixed traffic situations (which you seem to be advocating) do you choose to ignore that a call of "coming through" is part of preparing to slow down?



I am quite happy to cater for cyclists approaching ahead of me and coming towards me. I can see them and they can see me.
The problem I have with selfish cyclists relates to the ones who approach from behind at high speed, only shouting "Coming through" at the last minute. The cyclists are at fault here not the pedestrians.
Pedestrians cannot constantly monitor when a cyclist may be approaching them from behind at high speed. That is the responsibility of the cyclist who must be prepared to "slow down or stop" according to the Highway Code for pedestrians.
The speed with which cyclists approach pedestrians from behind is very dangerous and does not allow for pedestrians to react in time.
The Highway Code does not state "Pedestrians must jump aside to make way for cyclists at all times". It clearly states that cyclists must "Slow down or stop" for pedestrians. The aggression shown by some cyclists towards pedestrians in Richmond Park is very dangerous.
My point is that on roads, cyclists demand that motorists give them plenty of space when passing but cyclists whizz and weave between pedestrians on paths without showing the same consideration they demand of others. It is not all cyclists but it is a worryingly high number cycling dangerously in close proximity to pedestrians and it is happening inside in Richmond Park, of that there is no doubt.
Cyclists must make allowances for the elderly, the infirm, children, dogs, disabled people or people hard of hearing.
The cyclists do not have the right to intimidate pedestrians by aggressively shouting "Coming through" when in fact they should be planning stop if required to not put pedestrians at risk.
Why do cyclists expect better and safer treatment from motorists yet hypocritically, feel free to intimidate pedestrians by their aggressive cycling behaviour?
LenShepherd 11 4.1k United Kingdom
25 May 2019 10:19PM

Quote:
Quote:
Quote:The problem I have with cyclists on the paths in Richmond Park, from personal experience, is approaching pedestrians from behind at high speed. A group of pedestrians walking and talking do not hear the cyclists approaching. Cyclists are required to be prepared to "Slow down or stop" when approaching pedestrians.

If walkers are not taking reasonable heed of their surroundings in mixed traffic situations (which you seem to be advocating) do you choose to ignore that a call of "coming through" is part of preparing to slow down?



I am quite happy to cater for cyclists approaching ahead of me and coming towards me. I can see them and they can see me.
The problem I have with selfish cyclists relates to the ones who approach from behind at high speed, only shouting "Coming through" at the last minute. The cyclists are at fault here not the pedestrians.
Pedestrians cannot constantly monitor when a cyclist may be approaching them from behind at high speed. That is the responsibility of the cyclist who must be prepared to "slow down or stop" according to the Highway Code for pedestrians.


PLEASE - get a copy of the current Highway Code.
Rule 2 advises that on narrow roads etc pedestrians should walk on the right hand side and also be prepared to walk in single file.
Rule 66 advises cyclists to let others know they are there - if necessary.


Quote:
The speed with which cyclists approach pedestrians from behind is very dangerous and does not allow for pedestrians to react in time.


I do not know what you what you consider a safe speed for a cyclist to pass.
In case you do not know to keep balance a cycle has to maintain a reasonable minimum speed faster than walking. This is because bicycle wheels act like gyroscopes but only at reasonable speed, helping a cyclist stay upright without risk of a wobble.
8 mph is a normal minimum.
Faster than this would not normally be a problem - if you reasonably followed rule 2 and walk on the right hand side..

Quote:
The Highway Code does not state "Pedestrians must jump aside to make way for cyclists at all times". It clearly states that cyclists must "Slow down or stop" for pedestrians. The aggression shown by some cyclists towards pedestrians in Richmond Park is very dangerous.


Rule 66 says nothing about stopping.
For the safety of cyclists with whom you might be partly to blame for an accident - my advice is learn the current Highway Code.

Quote:
My point is that on roads, cyclists demand that motorists give them plenty of space when passing but cyclists whizz and weave between pedestrians on paths without showing the same consideration they demand of others.


You have got your facts wrong.
While any accident is unfortunate, it is rare for a cyclist to injure a pedestrian
There are many more serious accidents involving motor vehicles because of there size, weight and speed.
All police forces now accept a motorist passing a cyclists with a clearance of less than 5 feet justifies appropriate action.


Quote:

Cyclists must make allowances for the elderly, the infirm, children, dogs, disabled people or people hard of hearing.


The elderly and infirm tend to have walking sticks or Zimmer frames, the Highway Code advises children should be on the inside with an adult between them and other traffic, disabled people tend to be in a wheelchair, I agree no specific warning for deafness though they are given special advice in the Code, and blind people have a white stick.
These put a cyclist (or jogger) on notice to take extra care

Quote:
The cyclists do not have the right to intimidate pedestrians by aggressively shouting "Coming through" when in fact they should be planning stop if required to not put pedestrians at risk.


I agree no-one has the right to intimidate anyone.
A friendly warning from behind can be heard at a far greater distance than cycle bells. This is why I call in preference to using my bell when coming up behind pedestrians (and a few horse riders) who are not keeping a reasonable look out or are not on the left.
You seem to mistakenly presume any warning of coming through, advised by the Highway Code, is aggressive instead of common sense.
lemmy 12 2.8k United Kingdom
26 May 2019 11:13AM
Since all cyclists are deemed to be responsible for the actions of any anti-social cyclist, I really must complain at the way pedestrians throw their litter over the tracks and paths in Richmond Park.

I saw a pedestrian throw away a drinks can near Ham Gate yesterday. What have you pedestrians to say for yourselves? Grin
keithh 16 25.5k 33 Wallis And Futuna
26 May 2019 3:21PM

Quote:The elderly and infirm tend to have walking sticks or Zimmer frames, the Highway Code advises children should be on the inside with an adult between them and other traffic, disabled people tend to be in a wheelchair,


Moment of silence whilst the elderly and disabled line up for a go at Len Cliché
rhody 17 2.8k 2 United Kingdom
27 May 2019 9:08AM
LenShepherd - Highway Code Guidance from gov.uk

Rule 62 - "Cycle Tracks. These are normally located away from the road, but may occasionally be found alongside footpaths or pavements. Cyclists and pedestrians may be segregated or they may share the same space (unsegregated). When using segregated tracks you MUST keep to the side intended for cyclists as the pedestrian side remains a pavement or footpath. Take care when passing pedestrians, especially children, older or disabled people, and allow them plenty of room. Always be prepared to slow down and stop if necessary. Take care near road junctions as you may have difficulty seeing other road users, who might not notice you."

The dangerous cyclists in Richmond Park either don't understand this or simply don't care and choose to ignore it putting pedestrians at risk.
The onus is cyclists to be prepared to slow down or stop when approaching pedestrians from behind at high speed - not to aggressively shout "Coming Through" in order to intimidate pedestrians.
Cyclists need to give pedestrians consideration and space in the same way they demand it of motorists. Anything less is totally hypocritical of them.
I am a cyclist by the way so I am not having a go at all cyclists - just the dangerous ones which give us all a bad name.

LenShepherd 11 4.1k United Kingdom
27 May 2019 9:26AM

Quote:
Quote:The elderly and infirm tend to have walking sticks or Zimmer frames, the Highway Code advises children should be on the inside with an adult between them and other traffic, disabled people tend to be in a wheelchair,


Moment of silence whilst the elderly and disabled line up for a go at Len Cliché



Earlier in the thread the moderators asked that posts do not become personal.

You seem to be trying to distort the meaning of what I said when responding to "Cyclists must make allowances for the elderly, the infirm, children, dogs, disabled people or people hard of hearing."
The response was to the level of care to those not fit and active, not those who are able bodied.
To put this into the context of the Highway Code cyclists, motorists and joggers are expected to travel with with due consideration to other road users and generally adjust their speed and placement on a road, or on a bridleway if on a horse or cycle, depending on what they are approaching.

I am elderly but still cycle up to 75 miles a day, including cycling up 1:5 gradients, hike, back-pack etc.
My cycle has a bell and rear reflector as advised in the Highway Code to help alert other road users when appropriate.

If I was old and unsteady, as some are, I would consider it reasonable to try to put other road users on notice.
This is no more than applying the Highway Code guidance of consideration for other road users to walkers.

I do hope you are not implying there is never a duty of care for walkers.
If you are, perhaps take note that the Code guidance for large groups of walkers is to post look-outs, in fluorescent clothing, at the front and rear of the group in mixed traffic situations.