Which is more poisonous - Novichok or poisonous Government propaganda?


gcarth Plus
14 3.0k 1 United Kingdom
8 Apr 2018 2:27PM
I think the government must think the "sheeple" are stupid enough to believe all these lies about the recent poisonings.
However, there are also a lot of intelligent people who don't believe everything dished up by the media and I think this will backfire on the government and they will be very seriously, if not terminally damaged.

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8 Apr 2018 4:56PM
What lies are you referencing Garth?

I think there may be a lot we dont know, possibly why the international community is still standing strong behind the UK. I'm not sure why the media is so quick to support the Russians, its not like they dont have form. The Russian troll factories are working overtime, you only have to look at whats happening in Syria now.

Take a look at Hoaxy to see how disinformation campaigns can spread.
LenShepherd 10 3.8k United Kingdom
8 Apr 2018 5:29PM

Quote:
there are also a lot of intelligent people who don't believe everything dished up by the media


You are generally right about this.
"News" is about who says what now, not what may or may not have happened.
arhb Plus
11 3.4k 68 United Kingdom
8 Apr 2018 5:43PM
Jestertheclown 10 7.8k 252 England
8 Apr 2018 5:51PM

Quote:“You can kiss goodbye to the BBC being an independent broadcaster”

Would anyone miss it?

rhody 16 2.6k 2 United Kingdom
8 Apr 2018 6:26PM
"The first casualty of war, is truth" - as true today as it ever was.

I certainly do not trust the media, BBC or politicians to give us the unvarnished truth any more.

The era of "Fake news" is truly upon us, for whatever reason those deciding to peddle it deem fit to subject us to.

Politicians and the media are nothing more than "Snake oil" salesmen and they used to get chased out of town for a reason.

And I loathe with a vengeance the kangaroo courts of social media. Mob rule has never been so frighteningly manipulated.
gcarth Plus
14 3.0k 1 United Kingdom
8 Apr 2018 7:14PM

Quote:What lies are you referencing Garth?

I refer to the lies that Novichok (if it exists) can only be made or sourced by the Russians. 
According to Porton Down, The poison used to poison the Skripal's was "of a type developed by Russia" i.e. not necessarily Novichok - and so it could have been developed anywhere else..
The real experts i.e. nerve agent scientists, say that a student could make the stuff - it doesn't have to be commissioned by the state.
So it is a lie that the government has "proof" that the Russians are responsible. Why don't they show us the "proof"?
The Russians may of course be responsible but not necessarily on orders from the Kremlin. If the stuff isn't so difficult to get hold of, then any rogue operator might have used it.
Anyway, why did the Government not wait for the Police to finish their investigation of the crime scene before making wild accusations?
Why did the poison not affect the Skripal's for hours after they had left their house? A nerve agent like Novichok is supposed to act instantly - no delayed action.
These are only some of the criticisms that can be made against the government's claims.

Quote:I think there may be a lot we dont know, possibly why the international community is still standing strong behind the UK. I'm not sure why the media is so quick to support the Russians, its not like they dont have form. The Russian troll factories are working overtime, you only have to look at whats happening in Syria now.  
Take a look at Hoaxy to see how disinformation campaigns can spread.


I'm amazed that you think that the media is so quick to support the Russians. I see the opposite: Surely, the media is hell-bent on blaming the Russians without evidence. The Russian troll factories may well be working over time too, but if that is so, they are using the comments sections to post their propaganda. They can hardly compete with the British newspaper propaganda articles pumped out by the Government.
The Russians do have form but we and also the US have form i.e. the lies about Vietnam, WMD's in Iraq, "humanitarian intervention", to name but a few...

 
 

8 Apr 2018 7:29PM
From what I understand the proof requires a degree of confirmation by the Intelligence services.


Quote:A nerve agent like Novichok is supposed to act instantly - no delayed action.
Doesn't it depend whether its i ingested/inhaled or not. If it was, as has been reported, it was on doorhandles, it may have taken upto 4 hours before they fell ill. I found this article in the New Scientist interesting.
gcarth Plus
14 3.0k 1 United Kingdom
8 Apr 2018 7:55PM

Quote:Doesn't it depend whether its i ingested/inhaled or not. If it was, as has been reported, it was on doorhandles, it may have taken upto 4 hours before they fell ill. I found this article in the New Scientist interesting.
Hmm. The poison was smeared on the exterior door handles, so why did both father and daughter fall ill? Surely it is unlikely the would both have touched the handle as they left. (though of course, it's possible).
Why on earth would any professional agent smear exterior door handles with poison in the UK where it so frequently rains? It was actually wet on the day the event occurred.

Quote:From what I understand the proof requires a degree of confirmation by the Intelligence services.


. I'm afraid the "Intelligence Services" are the very last people I would ask for proof from: Remember the non-existent WMD's?
By the way, stocks of Russan Novichok were supposed to have been destroyed under the UN watchdog in 2013.
The whole story stinks to high heaven, and someone knows a lot more than we do...
Dave_Canon 12 1.4k United Kingdom
8 Apr 2018 8:14PM
Garth, the intelligence service did not support the WMD in Iraq so you are promoting fake information. It was Tony Blair who pressed this topic and misled parliament. Tony Blair has since admitted that he wanted to support George Bush in regime change. What would the UK have to gain from an attack on Russian dissidents? Russia had previously been accused of assassinating such dissidents and had the means and the motive. With Brexit, the UK is not currently very popular in Europe but received support because other countries have similar fears about Russia based on incidents in their own countries.
keith selmes 15 7.4k 1 United Kingdom
8 Apr 2018 8:28PM
Obviously it must be the British government that is lying because the Russian government would never do a thing like that, seems to be the popular premise. It reminds me of how facts about the 9/11 incident became buried under a welter of conspiracy theories. Which is great if you are a government that actually does have something to obfuscate.

Nowadays we don't trust experts apparently, but here goes anyway.

Some expert insight

And more from Switzerland
Fma7 3 849 United Kingdom
8 Apr 2018 9:15PM
OP will use any attempt to attack the government as can be seen from many of his posts, also appears to be something of an expert on nerve agent use too.

Why have 20 countries expelled Russian diplomats? Oh that's right they are stupid sheeples.
gcarth Plus
14 3.0k 1 United Kingdom
8 Apr 2018 9:32PM

Quote:Garth, the intelligence service did not support the WMD in Iraq so you are promoting fake information.
I'm not promoting fake information: Sir Richard Dearlove was in charge of the MI6 Intelligence Agency at the time - he intervened and backed Blair in saying that there were WMD's. However, there were I believe, others in the Intelligence Service who didn't believe it.

Quote:What would the UK have to gain from an attack on Russian dissidents? Russia had previously been accused of assassinating such dissidents and had the means and the motive. With Brexit, the UK is not currently very popular in Europe but received support because other countries have similar fears about Russia based on incidents in their own countries.


You need to ask yourself what motive would Russia have on the eve of elections?
The fact is that we plebs don't know who is behind it and if they have proof, why can't the government show us?
I'm sure someone knows; but the public is being kept in the dark.
No sensible person would suggest that Russia is run by a completely benign government or that Putin is a saint and a true democrat.
However, the fact is that the West has been ramping up the anti with Russia for years now and they are trying to justify the fact the actions of NATO.
I hope you realise that the West has Russia ringed by missiles and NATO is right up on the Russian western border.

rhody 16 2.6k 2 United Kingdom
8 Apr 2018 9:38PM
There are questions, which anyone with an enquiring mind would like clarified, not to negate any "National Security" concerns but just things that seem odd.

1. One quality newspaper reported early on in the incident that there were 16 known laboratories around the world that held stocks of this very nerve agent "in order to understand how it works and how to produce an antidote".
2. The policeman that became affected by the nerve agent, allegedly came into contact with it by trying to give CPR to both the father and daughter. He fell ill almost immediately, not 4 hours or more later.
3. This nerve agent was produced in Russian labs and the means of disposal in pre-Putin days, was not properly recorded at the time according to British and American sources
4. The hospital in Salisbury did a fantastic job in aiding the recovery of the victims but it has yet to be explained how the exact nerve agent was so quickly identified and an effective antidote administered so quickly.

I agree that Russia has the most to gain but do we have anything more than circumstantial evidence against them?

If the situation were reversed, and we were the accused, would Mrs May not be demanding to see the "evidence" against our country too?

Jingoistic sabre-rattling has no place when the stakes are as high as this. The facts should speak for themselves and we should not be carried along by the kangaroo court of mob rule.

The trouble in this era of "Fake News" is knowing who to believe when everything is so "vague" and circumstantial.
gcarth Plus
14 3.0k 1 United Kingdom
8 Apr 2018 9:42PM

Quote:OP will use any attempt to attack the government as can be seen from many of his posts, also appears to be something of an expert on nerve agent use too.

I think everyone should question our government as much as anyone else's government. I'm not an expert on nerve gas but I'm simply relaying what the experts say. So stop being so bloody belligerent.

Quote:Why have 20 countries expelled Russian diplomats? Oh that's right they are stupid sheeples.
Well, at least you you're right there.

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