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Gordale Scar

By keithh  
The Scar was a good test for HDR.

The process is excellent for print but doesn't always come over on the web - sometimes not even on a monitor screen as not all can cope with the dynamics and once compressed, the level of detail causes compression problems.

However, this is one shot that got us a bit fired up here to try more and one of those things was the fact that although the detail and colour is there in the rocks the water has retained total detail throughout.

Knowing that Gordale was one of the places that inspired the creation of Middle Earth, I wanted a look that hinted at that magical land.

Interesting me anyhow.
f22 and 1/15, 1/6, 1/2, 1s and 2s.

Tags: General Yorkshire Waterfall Malham Dales Hdr Digitally manipulated Epz meet Landscape and travel Gordale

Voters: fauxtography, casson, elkiebrooks and 71 more

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culturedcanvas 14 4.7k 59 United Kingdom
18 Jan 2007 9:22AM
Classy bit of HDR and nice to see it used in just the right spot.


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mattmatic 16 598
18 Jan 2007 9:25AM
Very nice stuff indeed Smile
(BTW, do you process your RAW first in C1, or do you do it all from RAW in Photomatix?)

Oddly, the 500px looks slightly more appealing than the 1000px - might be this monitor though...
BertC Plus
13 29 Malta
18 Jan 2007 9:25AM
Lovely work !!
jken 13 1.7k 1 United Kingdom
18 Jan 2007 9:28AM
Love the detail Keith. Skies a bit screwed but as you say it's down to the monitor and compression. Got the Photomatix software and have to say i'm astonished at how much detail i'm getting out of my shots, even fudging the exp off of one RAW.

Bloody big those files i'm getting 700meg and Gig files, makes the printer creek a bit. LoL

They print brilliantly even on the ancient 1290, so much so that a mate of mine did'nt believe i'd taken the shot.

Westers 15 3.9k 1 Burkina Faso
18 Jan 2007 9:28AM
Agree with Dan, it's a classy shot.

Having read your comments then I'd say it does suffer from the web/compression. The bottom half of the picture is lacking a bit of contrast which makes it flat.

BUT, there is something about this that is very appealing.
Mike Gray 15 382 United Kingdom
18 Jan 2007 9:29AM
Perhaps you can bring the print to the Focus meet and give a talk on this HDR stuff Keith.
Would be very intresting.

wamp 13 276 8 England
18 Jan 2007 9:30AM
Nice work, the detail looks great

POOCHIE 14 21 6 United Kingdom
18 Jan 2007 9:35AM
Definately some good points and some not quite so good but appealing in a three d sort of way, especially in the shadow area's and the space where the sky shows through, I prefer the more natural finish you are getting, rather than some of the pictures that look totally over sharpened and unatural.

keithh 16 25.6k 33 Wallis And Futuna
18 Jan 2007 9:39AM
It's what I'm aiming to get.

I think the thing is that no system or method would have resulted in a picture which was all things to all men. Even the five straight shots lack a huge amount of contrast in the FG rocks as they were in complete shadow.

The RAW files in this instance were processed in C1 first....although Photomatix isn't a bad RAW processor it's not up to Capture standard.
amurray6 15 2 Scotland
18 Jan 2007 9:41AM
Truelly stunning I love this image well captured.

pmorgan 13 217 13 England
18 Jan 2007 9:44AM
This treatment really brings out the detail that you have captured.

Buffalo_Tom Plus
13 2.3k 11 Wales
18 Jan 2007 9:49AM
Fabulous rock formation and exposure in the streamGreat shot.
keithh 16 25.6k 33 Wallis And Futuna
18 Jan 2007 9:55AM
cheers guys...Oh and feel free
Westers 15 3.9k 1 Burkina Faso
18 Jan 2007 9:57AM
Ah, well if you'd said the foreground was in complete shadow then that would have explained a lot and made this shot all the more remarkable.

I have to say though it's one of those that I'm coming back to a fair bit and every time I do it grows on me more and more. Maybe it's the old brain having to get used to a picture that is like looking out of a window. Or perhaps it's the fact that we wouldn't normally see a shot like this, or if we did then it would a lot of elements blown out and in complete shadow.
Pete Plus
18 18.8k 97 England
18 Jan 2007 10:00AM
Fabulous detail, but it's a bit cartoon like in the top half. Wink
sut68 16 2.0k 76 England
18 Jan 2007 10:01AM
Liked this when I saw it on Northscape and I still like it now. Great bit of HDR work and a true showcase for how to do it properly. Top stuff.

DaveU 14 1.4k 125 England
18 Jan 2007 10:02AM
Has a slightly surreal feel to it, but it's an enjoyable image nonetheless. I'm just thinking it could perhaps do with a figure in wellies and a trackie to add a sense of scale and human interest Smile
keithh 16 25.6k 33 Wallis And Futuna
18 Jan 2007 10:04AM

Quote:bit cartoon like in the top half.

LOL....but not in print.

Greg Ward has spoken a lot on the differences between HDR on screens and in print. One of the reasons on images such as this, is due to the distances involved and a wide lens there is much more detail information per cm than there is in the FG and this doesn't transpose well onto a monitor. In print, due to better gradient and viweing distances we don't see it the same.

Can't you see the figure in this Dave?
Wink...look closely

Fascinating stuff to me.
GillyB Plus
14 317 8 United Kingdom
18 Jan 2007 10:07AM
Amazing detail in the rock and a fabulous image without a doubt.

DaveU 14 1.4k 125 England
18 Jan 2007 10:09AM
Couple of sticklebacks, a pied wagtail and what looks suspiciously like the hind legs of a juvenile otter, but no figure. Guess I need a bigger monitor.
keithh 16 25.6k 33 Wallis And Futuna
18 Jan 2007 10:11AM
LOL....that flippin Otter.

Look at the SC of scar in the title and follow a line up....the Scar is 300foot high you see....little man in green.
Westers 15 3.9k 1 Burkina Faso
18 Jan 2007 10:13AM
Fascinating indeed on how we perceive the same picture on different media.

I guess HDR is now really starting to show up just how poor a monitor is at displaying pictures.

Hmmm, I'd love to see an HDR shot printed big. Big as in 6ft tall, or so. I bet that would confuse the brain into wondering if it's looking at a picture, or whether it was looking out of a window, lol.
keithh 16 25.6k 33 Wallis And Futuna
18 Jan 2007 10:18AM
Maybe I ought to see about getting some done.

When you really start to read about the subject it's fascinating and being largely lead by the universities and keen individuals. The thing has a boot lace and glue feel to it that just makes it very approachable and fresh.
future 15 153
18 Jan 2007 10:28AM
Lots been said above, amazing that the rocks where in shadow, agree that the web probably isn't the best medium for this, would be good to see what a single shot of this scene would look like i.e the normal shot you would have taken (although you probably wouldn't have shot this scene with out HDR in mind). Good discussion.

Cheers Chris
Westers 15 3.9k 1 Burkina Faso
18 Jan 2007 10:28AM
Boot lace and glue, LOL.

Kinda like the early pioneers of photography...well, not really, but you know what I mean.

I'm surprised that the large corporates aren't more heavily involved in this. Actually, I'm not that surprised. They're just watching and waiting in the wings, letting the Uni's, etc do all the hard graft to get it up and going, then they'll waltz in and take over the companies that fit their needs. Et voila, a future technology, but massively reduced R&D costs.
18 Jan 2007 10:44AM
super exposure, this HDR seems to work wonderfully!! is there a program I could trial?

keithh 16 25.6k 33 Wallis And Futuna
18 Jan 2007 10:46AM
Oh they'll be in like Flynn..Adobe will have their wallets at the ready.

We've used it for about four years, off and on, on Super 16 film, but now the big boys in Harry Potter, James Bond and their ilk are using it on big budget movies.

I didn't bother with a non HDR of this as there was just no point as the grad on the sky just serves to further darken the shadowed areas.

Have a look at, Steve
Westers 15 3.9k 1 Burkina Faso
18 Jan 2007 10:48AM
Blow me, I never even thought about film using HDR.

How does that work?
keithh 16 25.6k 33 Wallis And Futuna
18 Jan 2007 10:53AM
It's the tone mapping on film. You map each frame, but also, some of the backgrounds...shock, horror...aren't real.
culturedcanvas 14 4.7k 59 United Kingdom
18 Jan 2007 10:55AM
I agree with Keith completely .. HDR is like having a new toy .. it's fresh and exciting not least because of the way it is being developed ... it gives you a feeling of been in on it at ground level, part of the process as it were.

In addition its good to be able to give feedback to those individuals and companies who are using and developing the software ... most are very small and welcome the input.

Kim Walton 16 145 30 United Kingdom
18 Jan 2007 11:03AM
This is what i`ve been looking for,an example of what we should be aiming for.
paulstefan 15 509 1 United Kingdom
18 Jan 2007 11:31AM
I once climbed up there when it was gushing out gallons of water, with all the 'day trippers' staring at me with bewilderment from the bottom!
Top stuff, this.

cheers, Paul
keithh 16 25.6k 33 Wallis And Futuna
18 Jan 2007 11:43AM
cheers guys

I watched about 8 walkers use the footpath on the day this was of them was a young girl in wellys and a trackie.!!
nothsafoto 14 170 United Kingdom
18 Jan 2007 11:47AM
This looks good from the point of detail in the water and rocks Keith but I also agree that the top section looks a bit strange and the rim of the Scar against the sky is unnaturally sharp. This is probably down to compression and TFT viewing and the print will look fine?

This HDR is fun.

Tandberg 16 1.2k 2 England
18 Jan 2007 12:00PM
Yip credit where its due Keith!!

Detail in the water and the natural capture is bang on and i'd say its the best from the day without doubt..
Nice one
stevenj 16 2.0k England
18 Jan 2007 12:07PM
I guess a place like that with shed loads of detail in the rocks and varying degrees of contrast throught, is ideal for the good old HDR test. It certainly was a bugger to capture right on the day if I remember rightly.

Perhaps Pete could use an HDR image in print for the backdrop at Focus - then we could all have a gander?
John_Duckett 15 386 2 Norfolk Island
18 Jan 2007 12:30PM
I know this place really well Keith. This is the best shot I've seen that actually captures the size of the place. Excellent

Nice to see HDR used as a tool rather then a gimmick!

ade_mcfade 16 15.2k 216 England
18 Jan 2007 12:39PM


think yours is sharper though... darn wind got hold of mine
keithh 16 25.6k 33 Wallis And Futuna
18 Jan 2007 12:50PM
thanks for dropping in you me it will always be a tool, John...and it's bound to develop in time.

wind?...there was wind?
ChrisOs 15 2 1 United Kingdom
18 Jan 2007 12:52PM

Quote:Oddly, the 500px looks slightly more appealing than the 1000px - might be this monitor though..

I have to agree with Matt on this one. Or maybe it's just that I'm not that used to looking at HDR images yet.
ade_mcfade 16 15.2k 216 England
18 Jan 2007 12:54PM
Yeah - Dave had beans for breakfast by all accounts

Tell you what though, it's stronger today in halifax (just conincidental that Dave lives here) - though not quite as pretty as Goredale Smile
keithh 16 25.6k 33 Wallis And Futuna
18 Jan 2007 1:07PM
The reason Chris is that your monitor is able to portray the gradients easier at 500 than it can at 1000

The studio is actually moving in this wind......damn those building short cuts!!!!!
ade_mcfade 16 15.2k 216 England
18 Jan 2007 1:09PM
Anyone for a trip to Ovenden Moor this afternoon Smile

they'll be taking off, though I can't see them for cloud at the mo
Tandberg 16 1.2k 2 England
18 Jan 2007 1:31PM
Wind, turbines, you daft Ade those turbs at the mo would send you into orbit!

And i had no beans LOL
Jouİo 15 56 Finland
18 Jan 2007 1:43PM

ade_mcfade 16 15.2k 216 England
18 Jan 2007 1:45PM
ha ha - looking at the rain up there dave, you'd drown first!

are we hijacking Keith's shot here?

Backrower 13 6 United Kingdom
18 Jan 2007 1:46PM
Don't profess to understand all that techno mumbo jumbo (Westers & Keith), I just think it is a really good image.
User_Removed 15 524 England
18 Jan 2007 1:52PM
Flippin' eck how much depth can you get in a shot?! About the first one of these shots I've seen that I like - and one that looks made for HDR.
Westers 15 3.9k 1 Burkina Faso
18 Jan 2007 1:54PM
LOL - you think I do? I understand the very basics of HDR, but haven't even got around to looking at tone mapping, although I think I know what it tries to do.

Here's an interesting debate, Keith. You classed this as digital manipulation and several other people I've seen class it as that.

Technically I suppose it is manipulation as you're using multiple files, but is it really manipulation? To me it isn't - you're just doing digitally what you'd use a filter to do prior to HDR. You've not actually changed anything.
keithh 16 25.6k 33 Wallis And Futuna
18 Jan 2007 1:59PM
No...not really changed anything but I have also brought some of the deeper colours out as part of the process and there are bound to be some purists who look upon fitting pieces of plastic to the fron of lenses as not manipulating the scene.
and it could be argued, fairly succesfully that Tone Mappping is a digital process beyond the usuallly accepted ones.

The views stipulated above may not be the views of the Northscape management but are used to illustrate a point and influence debate.


ta much you lot
Westers 15 3.9k 1 Burkina Faso
18 Jan 2007 2:05PM
LOL - yes, there will always be purists who argue that you've manipulated.

As for bringing some of the tones out...hmmm, kind of what you can do with curve adjustments, but that's not manipulation. You see what I'm driving at.

However, you've hit the nail on the head when you say it's "beyond the usually accepted ones." People are still in shock about bits of silicone catching the moment, let alone devil worshipping such as this.

keithh 16 25.6k 33 Wallis And Futuna
18 Jan 2007 2:15PM
Let's put it this way.

I can set a camera up choose a filter and press the button and when I press the button I can tell you exactly what that photo will look like. That's fine - nothing wrong with that, but I've been doing that week in week out for years. With HDR I have to find new subjects and even when I do there's no saying EXACTLY what the final image will look like.
Now that's fun.
Westers 15 3.9k 1 Burkina Faso
18 Jan 2007 2:19PM
Some of us still don't know what we're going to get from the traditional way, lol.
keithh 16 25.6k 33 Wallis And Futuna
18 Jan 2007 2:21PM
some of us are just older
sut68 16 2.0k 76 England
18 Jan 2007 2:22PM

Quote:Some of us still don't know what we're going to get from the traditional way, lol

With you on that one Ian, though I am trying to get better at that ;-D
sut68 16 2.0k 76 England
18 Jan 2007 2:22PM

Quote:Some of us are just older

... and wiser????
PatrickSmith 15 1.2k 2 United States
18 Jan 2007 3:44PM
Well, I don't think this should be classified as 'digitally manipulated.' That should be reserved for things like inserting a new sky (definitely not here - lol!), or adding items to the shot.

I spoke at a camera club meeting last night with about 50 people present. Most were using HDR. I'm way behind the curve I guess.

Some day, cameras will take 32 bit images with better dynamic range and this whole business of taking multiple exposures will be remembered in the same sort of way as film is today. But for now, it must be done.

dave thelens 16 936 United Kingdom
18 Jan 2007 4:45PM
super bit of HDR'ing

rontear Plus
17 23 8 England
18 Jan 2007 4:49PM
Lots of these about at the moment. Who is following whom. Still a good shot Keith. Ron.
AngelaR 15 155 United Kingdom
18 Jan 2007 4:56PM
Sorry, not into the technical stuff at all - BUT - a wonderful shot, which brings back a lot of memories for me from 30+ years ago (when my future husband had me climing up there and up to the Tarn in the pouring rain one spring). Thanks Keith.
keithh 16 25.6k 33 Wallis And Futuna
18 Jan 2007 5:09PM
and you married him?

cheers guys
User_Removed 16 17.9k 8 Norway
18 Jan 2007 7:26PM
I am getting better printed results too Keith. I find it very difficult to know when its right for the screen...
keithh 16 25.6k 33 Wallis And Futuna
18 Jan 2007 7:37PM
you get used to it. Beomes a bit like sharpening for inkjet printing if it looks a step too far - it'll probably be right at the other end.
Nigel_95 Plus
14 262 2 United Kingdom
18 Jan 2007 10:08PM
Very impressive results Keith, and it has been informative reading the comments.

sescott 16 1
18 Jan 2007 11:15PM
Very effective use of HDR. I really like the way you still manage to retain some "snap" in the image.
digicammad 16 22.0k 39 United Kingdom
19 Jan 2007 9:57AM
Excellent shot Keith. Interesting to hear about the differences when printing. Are there any points to bear in mind when printing these, as opposed to standard shots?

keithh 16 25.6k 33 Wallis And Futuna
19 Jan 2007 10:00AM the sharpening!!! Massive amounts of edge detail don't take kindly to being pushed too far.

thanks for the comments on this one.
VintageRed 14 15 1 United Kingdom
19 Jan 2007 2:42PM
One of my favourites of your recent work Keith. Impressive stuff.
jellylegs 15 59 Ireland
19 Jan 2007 11:52PM
While not the best shot in your portfolio, I'm impressed by the amount of detail you've got here. Shadow & highlight detail together where it's normally not posible. Beautiful treatment. A very contrasty location like this (along with decent skill) shows the proper power of HDR. No Cartoon Nework stuff here. Looks completely natural....yet above the norm. Superb treatment.

Alison_S 14 339 United Kingdom
21 Jan 2007 10:26AM
Very nicely done indeed, great textures and detail no false/sketchey look to it at all.

fauxtography 14 6.6k 36
29 Jan 2007 3:49PM
oooh i was thinking of looking at my files from that day...not so sure i'll bother now! :-( lol.. a cracker keith.

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