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Hoops 11 10 Thailand
5 Aug 2008 10:31AM
This is very good Dan. I think the only change i would make would be an image rotation.

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sut68 15 2.0k 76 England
5 Aug 2008 10:32AM
I don't have a problem with the rotation as it sits a little uncomfortably, which adds to the image for me. Disturbingly good.

Paul
culturedcanvas 13 4.7k 59 United Kingdom
5 Aug 2008 10:37AM
I kind of like the image angle Hoops. It was as shot with just a touch of crop off the right hand side. I do have another with a portrait orientation with her head positioned essentially in the bottom right .. veyr similar pose .. haven't processed it yet so can't tell which one I prefer.

Ive enjoyed posting these variants though as it's always interesting to hear peoples comments and it gives me an opportunity to explain and run through my thought process at the tmie of taking the shots.

Smile
PeteWilliamson 13 545 2 Isle of Man
5 Aug 2008 10:40AM
Cool.. although the water (probably my monitor) is a bit too dark of me.. I reckon seeing some more of the hair under the surface would look cool.. or maybe roots/weeds.

Nicely done though.

Pete
Meg 14 393 United Kingdom
5 Aug 2008 10:45AM
another good one!
culturedcanvas 13 4.7k 59 United Kingdom
5 Aug 2008 10:48AM
Pete ... once again I moved position for this .. essentially to darken the water down. On this one I didn't want any reflections disturbing the shot hence the slight crop on the right (that was for composition too).

The water is silty and murky so there was no point in using a CP to try to cut through it so it was shot without. The post processing on this hasn't really added much to the blackness tho it has taken it down a touch ... at full rs you can see traces of hair detail and obviously the whitness of the skin does come through.

I've got a few other shoots coming up which although don't use the same concept will have a similar outcome ... so I expect a couple might get an airing on here too.

Smile
newy17 13 273 United Kingdom
5 Aug 2008 11:02AM
Superb image Beautifully captured,
ian
angej 14 479 United Kingdom
5 Aug 2008 11:07AM
Excellent once again Dan, and so different from the usual shots on here.
Ange
ChrisV Plus
12 2.3k 26 United Kingdom
5 Aug 2008 11:11AM
I absolutely hate this series and particularly this shot, which I think is the most 'successful' of the three so far. I once discovered a body in water and Kaybee's comments earlier seem to bear out the general nature of these sort of circumstances.

I can of course appreciate the skill and effort that's gone into this and the commitment of the model. The pose and colouring here are also the most deathlike of all with the pallor and the dirt adding to the effect. But in the final analysis, the 'beauty aspect of this (and you have some preserved of course), makes it feel like ogling a corpse.

It may well be that it's your intention to produce something that's deeply disturbing, but I'm afraid I can't bring myself to admire that.

Maybe that's a 'result'...
StevenPrice 14 30 2 England
5 Aug 2008 11:19AM
class work m8
culturedcanvas 13 4.7k 59 United Kingdom
5 Aug 2008 11:26AM
Chris

It's an interesting point .. and obviously you've seen the progression of the concept through these shots to the current one. As a wider body of work it probably starts to make more sense .. but there are individual pockets of satire within the whole series.

For instance how many people celebrated when the US released photos of the corpses of Uday and Qusay? Was this a celebration of death and is there a macabre beauty contained within those images? Not through the skill of the photographer but through a sense of justice?

Our TV screens are littered with death ... both fiction and non fiction. Are you a fan of CSi, NCIS? Do you read any Patricia Cornwell? If so then are you not contributing to the concept that there is an innate beauty in death?

WHat about images of the cruxification of Christ? It's certainly an image well played out through art history.

That said of course there is an intention for this to be slightly uncomfortable viewing, and the fact of the matter is it should make you feel in parts like ogling a corpse. It's hopefully that pang of guilt at being so overtly voyeuristic at something which you've been brought up to feel is taboo which makes this succeed.

Yet in the shot you still find beauty .... hopefully the visual contradiction is marked.

Smile
PeteWilliamson 13 545 2 Isle of Man
5 Aug 2008 11:34AM
Ohh.. I didn't read the title.. I just thought she was a mucky bird that liked playing in puddles! Wink
culturedcanvas 13 4.7k 59 United Kingdom
5 Aug 2008 11:36AM
Pete

I think that's just your own personal fantasies coming to the fore now .. Wink
ChrisV Plus
12 2.3k 26 United Kingdom
5 Aug 2008 12:15PM

Quote:Chris

It's an interesting point .. and obviously you've seen the progression of the concept through these shots to the current one. As a wider body of work it probably starts to make more sense .. but there are individual pockets of satire within the whole series.

For instance how many people celebrated when the US released photos of the corpses of Uday and Qusay? Was this a celebration of death and is there a macabre beauty contained within those images? Not through the skill of the photographer but through a sense of justice?

Our TV screens are littered with death ... both fiction and non fiction. Are you a fan of CSi, NCIS? Do you read any Patricia Cornwell? If so then are you not contributing to the concept that there is an innate beauty in death?

WHat about images of the cruxification of Christ? It's certainly an image well played out through art history.

That said of course there is an intention for this to be slightly uncomfortable viewing, and the fact of the matter is it should make you feel in parts like ogling a corpse. It's hopefully that pang of guilt at being so overtly voyeuristic at something which you've been brought up to feel is taboo which makes this succeed.

Yet in the shot you still find beauty .... hopefully the visual contradiction is marked.



My partner is more of a fan of those things you quote than I am (I've never really been tempted to read any of the Cornwell novels, but I've bought them for her), so I am familiar with the material. I've always thought our society's predilection for and acceptance of, death and violence, whilst being fussy and censorious of sex is a bit arse-about-face, personally.

As for the Crucifixion in art - it's a treatise in itself to map out how that's changed in depiction down the centuries, from early pre-renaissance stuff that emphasised the suffering and gruesome nature of the execution to the Victorian sanitised versions. There is a strange sort of attitude in much of that sort of thing though. I was struck a while ago about depictions of the martyrdom of St Sebastian - it almost seemed a competition at one time as to who could make the figure the prettiest and most nonchalant whilst having the most number of blood trailed arrows sticking out.

I should really have expected (not that I didn't) that an awful lot of consideration has gone on behind this. I suppose I'm a little disturbed that the majority of the comments you're getting are simply of the 'nice work' variety. My own comment is to a degree a bit of a reaction to that too. I hope there's perhaps a little more going on in terms of thought behind those posts.

This stuff does deserve not to be taken too lightly - it should challenge. And if it does that I can admire...
MNPHOTO 10 1 United Kingdom
5 Aug 2008 12:24PM
i think these images are fabolously done
PeteWilliamson 13 545 2 Isle of Man
5 Aug 2008 12:43PM
Just out of interest... is it the title or the image you base your comments on Chris.

If it had been called.. (as I think it should have Smile).. "Mucky bird in a puddle" would it have come across different?

Just interested.. some people put more into their titles than others.. but only a few really make the two work well together.
ChrisV Plus
12 2.3k 26 United Kingdom
5 Aug 2008 1:02PM

Quote:Just out of interest... is it the title or the image you base your comments on Chris.

If it had been called.. (as I think it should have ).. "Mucky bird in a puddle" would it have come across different?

Just interested.. some people put more into their titles than others.. but only a few really make the two work well together.



I rather thnk Dan's title was pretty deliberate - my reaction may have been even more 'knee-jerk' had it been as you suggested. It may have implied that the subject was to be taken lighty and there is a disturbing mix of glamour and death which is implicit in the content. I'm interested now to see what the elements of 'satire' might be later on in the series.

Perhaps my own personal experience (I was around seventeen when I chanced upon my first encounter of a corpse - in a resevoir) has also coloured my attitude to this somewhat.
PeteWilliamson 13 545 2 Isle of Man
5 Aug 2008 1:06PM
For sure, I agree the title was probably very deliberate.. but the power(edit) of images/art/photography is that is means something different to every (or most).
So I was just wondering if the title was critical to your thoughts and feelings on the image.

edit: Beauty is the wrong word.... so editted it.
culturedcanvas 13 4.7k 59 United Kingdom
5 Aug 2008 1:11PM
I titled the first one submerged without hinting at death or anything macabre about it ... yet people still found the image eerie? The eyes open style of that shot seemingly adding to the impact ... terror or ecstacy? Beauty or horror?

That said titles clearly do affect your initial train of thought .... don't they?

Wink
RipleyExile 16 1.6k 17 England
5 Aug 2008 1:13PM
I think that this is the better shot of the series as the pose comes across as more natural and unposed as if she's just drifted into view. The main issue I had with the last one was that her left elbow was raised out of the water (the legs were ok for me) so she was obviously supporting it as there was nothing under to support it. This kind of undermined the death theme suggested in the title for me. Her teeth seemed too white in the last shot as well. She is dirty and grubby in the shot so it gives the impression that she's been in the water for a bit, but not too long.

It's also been interesting to hear your thoughts behind this in your discussion with Chris.
PeteWilliamson 13 545 2 Isle of Man
5 Aug 2008 1:13PM
definatley.. without a doubt. I'm undecided whether I like titles.
POOCHIE Plus
13 21 6 United Kingdom
5 Aug 2008 1:41PM
Check this out Dan might intersest you link
banehawi Plus
15 2.0k 4006 Canada
5 Aug 2008 1:58PM
What an interesting dialogue, - which makes the series successful by its existence.

I like this and the others for their technical qualities, exposure, "makeup", pose mostly, - and as I know the model is not actually a dead body, perhaps it makes it easier for me to accept it as is.

Does is cross a line, - I dont think so, but if I had been is a position where I had seen or discovered a drowned person it would certainly disturb me deeply.

It can be seen as an anti death image, - making it a thing of beauty rather than something to be feared from some points of view.

Death has always been a subject in all art forms, and weve all seen some outstanding photos (yes, outstanding!) from war zones of dead and dying people whose essence was the message that war is not a good thing. Disturbing surely, but with a strong message.

I see this series as one persons way to make sense of the inevitable.


Regards


W
GregorP 14 4 Slovenia
5 Aug 2008 2:03PM
Excellent work!

Gregor
ashley 15 167 1 United Kingdom
5 Aug 2008 2:05PM
i dont mine looking at this shot because its not a real event as stated by Dan, is well staged by the photographer & model. if it were a real situation & photographed for no other reason than to put into the public gaze i would find that deeply disturbing and it should and would be challenged.

Ash
BERTRAM 11 United Kingdom
5 Aug 2008 3:37PM
This is a brilliant image.Love the effect of this image.
Dave
kaybee 15 6.5k 26 Scotland
6 Aug 2008 10:44AM
Dan - I think you have got it just about spot on here (as can be seen from Chis' reaction).

Obviously it will raise emotions which is what you are after and makes much more sense when the backgound is known.
Normally I would not open a thumbnail of such a picture because I have seen too much death in my life and hate the idea of it being 'glorified'.
On this occation It was because of our previous discussion and I was interested to see how this one would be received.
There is discussion going on and not just "I love it/hate it" which I think is what you wanted and I have been pleased to see the progession to get to that point

Roy
tony64 15 204 9 England
6 Aug 2008 11:45AM
Having read the very interesting discussion so far I would like to add my support to Dan for these images. As has been said before, there are many images of death in art, journalism and religion etc each performing a different function.
Here, in an artistic representsation, there has been no violence or real death used to create this image. Therefore it is not gloryfying death or murder.

However, there is a sort of beauty in death anyway as close friends and loved ones often view their dearly departed after death as a way of saying goodbye.

I was interested in hearing some peoples views about TV as there seem to be so many 'drama' progs now about murder. I tend to spend most evenings on here and don't watch these programmes, but since Prime Suspect, there does seem to be a glut of them. This should probably be a new Forum thread rather than using up Dans comments!

Tony
culturedcanvas 13 4.7k 59 United Kingdom
6 Aug 2008 11:57AM
Tony

Thanks for the comments Smile

I'm always happy to have discussions on image postings though ... sometimes you get more sense here than you do in the forums and we tend to be less 'moderated' ;-P
culturedcanvas 13 4.7k 59 United Kingdom
6 Aug 2008 2:41PM
Cheers Paul

Didn't see the award sat there ... just went for a browse into the user award gallery and noticed this shot Smile

Once again very much appreciated ... picking up awards is always a pleasant experience but more so when it's coming from photographers whose work I already respect.

Cheers once again ...

Dan
SamGillespie 13 94 United Kingdom
7 Aug 2008 3:50PM
I like this a lot.
Sam

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